6 ms·

John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, J. P. Morgan, Cornelius Vanderbilt, and the other robber barons of the Gilded Age have a hearty chuckle and say hi.

dymk 7d ago
Enshittification says hi
estearum 7d ago
If you think Rockefeller (especially) is an example of unalloyed greed, you unfortunately land in category (1) mentioned above. The problem is not wealth. The problem is not producing massive value and capturing a portion of it. The problem is thinking that the system-level goal of capitalism is to extract wealth rather than to produce it and distribute it. Of the men you listed, only Vanderbilt supports your argument.
- pksebben 7d ago
  I would be fascinated to hear what value you think JP Morgan created rather than moved around. His company continues to do so long after his death.
  - estearum 7d ago
    If you don't think underwriting and lending (and extended universe of financial services) are legitimate forms of value creation, I'm afraid that a hackernews comment thread won't be up to the task of demonstrating otherwise.
    - usef- 7d ago
      ... Aren't we back to a definition, then, that includes tech companies adding value too? All the free services I use every day I would consider value for me. Instant free search, fast home delivery, insightful educational content (90s educational TV had no competition over modern educational YouTube). Etc etc. I see fewer ads than I did in the 90s, too.
      - estearum 6d ago
        I certainly didn't argue that tech companies don't add value.
    - elcritch 6d ago
      Theres a reason American capital markets and tech go hand in hand after all. Just read the recent Mistral thread about the lack of capital in Europe and why Mistral seems largely third rate in the AI frontiers.
- mcmcmc 7d ago
  Rockefeller, the “competition is sin” guy, sure that has nothing to do with greed. His philanthropy had a positive impact but he was still an unethical business person hellbent on stopping anyone else from making money on his turf
- 59percentmore 7d ago
  Shareholder primacy certainly is relatively new, but it's also true that "the system-level goal of capitalism is to extract wealth". After that, hopefully we use that capital to produce and distribute goods "fairly". But Capitalism isn't synonymous with the free market, or any other market configuration, and it's totally possible for the people who control the means of production and distribution to... not produce or distribute. In fact, that may be advantageous in their efforts to secure more capital. Ultimately, "they" really always have been greedy villains. Shareholder supremacy just made it worse.
jimbokun 7d ago
At least we got some nice museums and libraries out of them.

dymk 7d ago

Enshittification says hi

estearum 7d ago

If you think Rockefeller (especially) is an example of unalloyed greed, you unfortunately land in category (1) mentioned above. The problem is not wealth. The problem is not producing massive value and capturing a portion of it. The problem is thinking that the system-level goal of capitalism is to extract wealth rather than to produce it and distribute it. Of the men you listed, only Vanderbilt supports your argument.

pksebben 7d ago
I would be fascinated to hear what value you think JP Morgan created rather than moved around. His company continues to do so long after his death.
- estearum 7d ago
  If you don't think underwriting and lending (and extended universe of financial services) are legitimate forms of value creation, I'm afraid that a hackernews comment thread won't be up to the task of demonstrating otherwise.
  - usef- 7d ago
    ... Aren't we back to a definition, then, that includes tech companies adding value too? All the free services I use every day I would consider value for me. Instant free search, fast home delivery, insightful educational content (90s educational TV had no competition over modern educational YouTube). Etc etc. I see fewer ads than I did in the 90s, too.
    - estearum 6d ago
      I certainly didn't argue that tech companies don't add value.
  - elcritch 6d ago
    Theres a reason American capital markets and tech go hand in hand after all. Just read the recent Mistral thread about the lack of capital in Europe and why Mistral seems largely third rate in the AI frontiers.
mcmcmc 7d ago
Rockefeller, the “competition is sin” guy, sure that has nothing to do with greed. His philanthropy had a positive impact but he was still an unethical business person hellbent on stopping anyone else from making money on his turf
59percentmore 7d ago
Shareholder primacy certainly is relatively new, but it's also true that "the system-level goal of capitalism is to extract wealth". After that, hopefully we use that capital to produce and distribute goods "fairly". But Capitalism isn't synonymous with the free market, or any other market configuration, and it's totally possible for the people who control the means of production and distribution to... not produce or distribute. In fact, that may be advantageous in their efforts to secure more capital. Ultimately, "they" really always have been greedy villains. Shareholder supremacy just made it worse.

jimbokun 7d ago

At least we got some nice museums and libraries out of them.