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I agree it’s much more than GDP. That’s kind of my entire point! These terms are complicated, and pretending that these things can be explained trivially by “

I agree it’s much more than GDP. That’s kind of my entire point! These terms are complicated, and pretending that these things can be explained trivially by “LOL CORPORATIONS GOOD GOVERNMENT BAD AHAHAHAH” is reductive at best.

krupan 7d ago
No libertarian is saying "corporations good!" Oh my gosh, the misunderstanding is huge. Go do some actual research about an idea before blindly arguing against it. Libertarianism is all about individuals and personal property and liberty. Sure people are free to organize into corporations, but libertarianism is not about favoring or giving special advantages or esteem or whatever else you seem to be imagining to corporations. It's about giving power to individuals! The hardest thing about libertarianism is people who are afraid of needing to exercise their own power and judgement. Every other political philosophy wants to make everything Someone Else's Problem. I think libertarianism is scary because it makes you responsible for yourself.
- tombert 7d ago
  It’s not explicitly about loving corporations, that just appears to be the consequence.
  - krupan 7d ago
    How is putting personal liberty above all else a love of corporations? If a corporation is furthering personal liberty then sure, I'll love them. If they aren't then I won't give them my time/money/attention. Why does everything revolve around corporations for you?
    - tombert 7d ago
      It’s not that “everything revolves around corporations for me”, it’s that every time I have ever criticized a corporation to a self-proclaimed libertarian, it it always deflected and turned into “well actually this is just the governments fault because…” Walter did this by taking the frankly idiotic position that Standard Oil actually wasn’t a monopoly, and you took the less-idiotic-but-still-bad position that Microsoft’s terrible business was actually just a consequence of government.
      - krupan 7d ago
        You put forth Microsoft as a monopoly, not necessarily a bad business.
        tombert 7d ago
        Sure, a monopoly (as determined by the courts, albeit briefly) and found to be engaging in anti-competitive practices. It wasn't some vague "copyright" thing that made Microsoft do the AARD code, or make it difficult/impossible to install Netscape on Windows.
        krupan 7d ago
        I feel like we're really getting off into the weeds here. I think the original question was, could they have achieved their monopoly without government help? I still think no. Their product, software, is given more protection than other types of products by copyright laws. If you sell a hamburger you can't copyright it. If you sell a circuit board you can't copyright it. PC clones kept IBM from becoming a monopoly at the exact same time Microsoft was becoming a monopoly. Why? Government protection. Microsoft even sued a guy named Mike Rowe for selling software (mikerowesoft.com). That's insane.

krupan 7d ago

No libertarian is saying "corporations good!" Oh my gosh, the misunderstanding is huge. Go do some actual research about an idea before blindly arguing against it. Libertarianism is all about individuals and personal property and liberty. Sure people are free to organize into corporations, but libertarianism is not about favoring or giving special advantages or esteem or whatever else you seem to be imagining to corporations. It's about giving power to individuals! The hardest thing about libertarianism is people who are afraid of needing to exercise their own power and judgement. Every other political philosophy wants to make everything Someone Else's Problem. I think libertarianism is scary because it makes you responsible for yourself.

tombert 7d ago
It’s not explicitly about loving corporations, that just appears to be the consequence.
- krupan 7d ago
  How is putting personal liberty above all else a love of corporations? If a corporation is furthering personal liberty then sure, I'll love them. If they aren't then I won't give them my time/money/attention. Why does everything revolve around corporations for you?
  - tombert 7d ago
    It’s not that “everything revolves around corporations for me”, it’s that every time I have ever criticized a corporation to a self-proclaimed libertarian, it it always deflected and turned into “well actually this is just the governments fault because…” Walter did this by taking the frankly idiotic position that Standard Oil actually wasn’t a monopoly, and you took the less-idiotic-but-still-bad position that Microsoft’s terrible business was actually just a consequence of government.
    - krupan 7d ago
      You put forth Microsoft as a monopoly, not necessarily a bad business.
      - tombert 7d ago
        Sure, a monopoly (as determined by the courts, albeit briefly) and found to be engaging in anti-competitive practices. It wasn't some vague "copyright" thing that made Microsoft do the AARD code, or make it difficult/impossible to install Netscape on Windows.
        krupan 7d ago
        I feel like we're really getting off into the weeds here. I think the original question was, could they have achieved their monopoly without government help? I still think no. Their product, software, is given more protection than other types of products by copyright laws. If you sell a hamburger you can't copyright it. If you sell a circuit board you can't copyright it. PC clones kept IBM from becoming a monopoly at the exact same time Microsoft was becoming a monopoly. Why? Government protection. Microsoft even sued a guy named Mike Rowe for selling software (mikerowesoft.com). That's insane.