8 ms·

It is troublesome that libertarianism isn't super well defined, but no version of libertarianism has the government "doing business" with anyone. It only enfor

by krupan 8d ago

It is troublesome that libertarianism isn't super well defined, but no version of libertarianism has the government "doing business" with anyone. It only enforces laws, it doesn't buy and sell anything, and it certainly doesn't do anything to insulate anyone from market forces (like governments do now with regulations, subsidies, tax breaks, etc.).

wyre 8d ago
So then what will the government due about supplying their military, offices, supplying technology, constructing the buildings that they work out of, purchasing or renting the land those buildings are on, or any other of the material goods that it needs to do the bare minimum of enforcing laws. I don't see how libertarian can ever be well defined when it seemingly is always based in ideology and the arguments supporting it always seem to be fallacious.
- krupan 8d ago
  Ok, maybe I went too far. There are the total anarchist libertarians that don't want any form of government. Personally I'm not sure I want to go that route. So my libertarian government will need a police force of some sort. That could be a collection of small local private businesses that small local governments do business with, giving them jurisdiction over the small local area. And there could be some hierarchy so that eventually they all are accountable to the central government. Like, city police contractors report to a state contractor, and the state contractors report to the federal contractor. I totally just made that up, so I'm sure we could work out details and make it better, but the overall point of minimizing government power and distributing it could be preserved as much as possible. No system is going to be perfect, but there is so much more we could do to take power, and therefore the temptation of corruption, away from the people we allow to rule over us. Giving fallible human individuals more power is never the right solution.
  - wyre 8d ago
    Giving private businesses the monopoly on violence seems like a great idea ;p What happens to the business when it isn't small anymore? What does that accountability even look like? Paperwork isn't accountability. I agree that details can be worked out and systems can be made better, and the government is corrupt (especially now, but also the past two decades I've been old enough to be politically conscious), but I don't think ideological free market libertarianism is the right path to get there. I think there is a lot of merit to a free market and I agree people deserve their own autonomy to not be ruled over, but right now corporations hold way too much power and wealth inequality is too large and only accelerating for me to accept libertarianism as a solution to modern society. I think another issue is the word libertarianism can easily mean so many different things. There are anarchist libertarians on the left and right, with social libertarians and market libertarians taking up the space between anarchists, and between the four of them there is no solidarity because they all want different things regarding the structure of society.
    - krupan 7d ago
      Hey, I was working hard to not make it a monopoly! Lol! All those different local police forces and each level of the hierarchy are different corporations. But seriously, if we could achieve a peaceful society without giving anyone permission to do violence it would be amazing! Sure, there are different ideas about how to implement libertarianism but the general idea is singular: Maximize individual liberty and private property rights. Accountability always comes down to individual liberty. The question isn't, "is the corporation too big?" The question is, "is it taking away personal property or individual liberty?" The absolute hardest part of libertarianism that all of you opponents miss is that it requires people to always be evaluating that in their choices. It requires people to avoid making everything Someone Else's Problem and wishing for Government to Just Take Care of It. People complain that corporations are too big or people are starving or I don't like what my neighbor is doing with their yard and libertarians answer with, "well, you're going to have to do something about that yourself instead of giving up rights and liberty so that someone else can try and force a fix down all our throats." It just blows people's minds! You mean I have give to the poor myself of my own free will? I have to talk to my neighbor about this myself? I need to stop giving that big evil corporation my money of my own accord? If I want more people to do these same things I have to gently persuade them instead of asking the police to just shoot them if they don't comply? The horrors!!
  - pocksuppet 7d ago
    So mercenaries? Has that ever worked out well for anyone?
    - krupan 7d ago
      You one line lot shots aren't doing anything useful here. Maybe sit the rest of this out

by krupan 8d ago

wyre 8d ago

So then what will the government due about supplying their military, offices, supplying technology, constructing the buildings that they work out of, purchasing or renting the land those buildings are on, or any other of the material goods that it needs to do the bare minimum of enforcing laws. I don't see how libertarian can ever be well defined when it seemingly is always based in ideology and the arguments supporting it always seem to be fallacious.

krupan 8d ago
Ok, maybe I went too far. There are the total anarchist libertarians that don't want any form of government. Personally I'm not sure I want to go that route. So my libertarian government will need a police force of some sort. That could be a collection of small local private businesses that small local governments do business with, giving them jurisdiction over the small local area. And there could be some hierarchy so that eventually they all are accountable to the central government. Like, city police contractors report to a state contractor, and the state contractors report to the federal contractor. I totally just made that up, so I'm sure we could work out details and make it better, but the overall point of minimizing government power and distributing it could be preserved as much as possible. No system is going to be perfect, but there is so much more we could do to take power, and therefore the temptation of corruption, away from the people we allow to rule over us. Giving fallible human individuals more power is never the right solution.
- wyre 8d ago
  Giving private businesses the monopoly on violence seems like a great idea ;p What happens to the business when it isn't small anymore? What does that accountability even look like? Paperwork isn't accountability. I agree that details can be worked out and systems can be made better, and the government is corrupt (especially now, but also the past two decades I've been old enough to be politically conscious), but I don't think ideological free market libertarianism is the right path to get there. I think there is a lot of merit to a free market and I agree people deserve their own autonomy to not be ruled over, but right now corporations hold way too much power and wealth inequality is too large and only accelerating for me to accept libertarianism as a solution to modern society. I think another issue is the word libertarianism can easily mean so many different things. There are anarchist libertarians on the left and right, with social libertarians and market libertarians taking up the space between anarchists, and between the four of them there is no solidarity because they all want different things regarding the structure of society.
  - krupan 7d ago
    Hey, I was working hard to not make it a monopoly! Lol! All those different local police forces and each level of the hierarchy are different corporations. But seriously, if we could achieve a peaceful society without giving anyone permission to do violence it would be amazing! Sure, there are different ideas about how to implement libertarianism but the general idea is singular: Maximize individual liberty and private property rights. Accountability always comes down to individual liberty. The question isn't, "is the corporation too big?" The question is, "is it taking away personal property or individual liberty?" The absolute hardest part of libertarianism that all of you opponents miss is that it requires people to always be evaluating that in their choices. It requires people to avoid making everything Someone Else's Problem and wishing for Government to Just Take Care of It. People complain that corporations are too big or people are starving or I don't like what my neighbor is doing with their yard and libertarians answer with, "well, you're going to have to do something about that yourself instead of giving up rights and liberty so that someone else can try and force a fix down all our throats." It just blows people's minds! You mean I have give to the poor myself of my own free will? I have to talk to my neighbor about this myself? I need to stop giving that big evil corporation my money of my own accord? If I want more people to do these same things I have to gently persuade them instead of asking the police to just shoot them if they don't comply? The horrors!!
- pocksuppet 7d ago
  So mercenaries? Has that ever worked out well for anyone?
  - krupan 7d ago
    You one line lot shots aren't doing anything useful here. Maybe sit the rest of this out