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please could you change 'drama' and 'accusation' to something more formal like 'allegation'. the paper makes a very serious allegation of dishonesty and possib
by lukewarm707 10d ago
please could you change 'drama' and 'accusation' to something more formal like 'allegation'.
the paper makes a very serious allegation of dishonesty and possible academic misconduct.
the governance and integrity of openai is of importance to the welfare of society. this is not a matter of drama.
- ryan_n 10d agoThe [lack of] integrity of OpenAI (and any other frontier lab) should already be pretty solidified. Among other horrible things, these companies stole millions of IPs and no one seems to care anymore. Regardless of what you think of the product they are making and the success of ai/its impact on humanity, these companies objectively do not have much integrity.
- simonw 10d agoHow do you feel about the integrity of the machine learning researchers over the past twenty years who trained models on scraped internet data that weren't particularly powerful and didn't attract any attention?
- lukewarm707 10d agoi think that this case, if they did train on buckmaster and alpöge, amounts to an attempt to steal the millenium prize, bypassing all attribution. legally speaking, the default privacy notice gives them an irrevocable license to your content. they may read and use the prompts for research. so it is very possible they simply stole the navier-stokes solution. that is the same principle as any other prompt but this would be a concrete example. there would be some difference between simply giving the model some prompts to read, which they are entitled to do on the default policy, and putting it into aggregate training data.
- ryan_n 10d agoIf they scraped internet data in the same way as current day frontier labs do, then I feel the same exact way about them. Why would I feel any different if that is the case?
- simonw 10d agoMy point is that researchers and academics really have been doing this for decades - it's the reason projects like Common Crawl and LAION exist. I think it's notable that nobody was calling out those researchers for their lack of integrity, because the systems they were building did not seem like a threat to anyone. OpenAI etc get accused of a lack of integrity on this precisely because the systems they are building work, and are profitable. My personal opinion here is that integrity is more about what you build with the data. I think saying "scraping means you lack integrity" is a simplification.
- smcg 10d agoyou massively collapsed what AI companies have been doing by comparing it to old internet-scraping. Facebook flat-out admitted that they scanned copyrighted books for their AI. The image generators most definitely trained on copyrighted images.
- ryan_n 10d agoLAION and Common Crawl both scraped copyrighted images. From what I can tell (I'm not an expert in this domain at all), the main difference between those two and frontier labs is in how they stored and used the data. CC and LAION seem to be actually open (unlike "Open"AI) and are more centered around publicly sharing the data they scrape to support research and innovation. OpenAI et al also stole everything from everyone. But then they raised billions of dollars from that data and sell back their LLM to people (again, among other things). They are also very much NOT open in any way, aside from sharing their benchmarks of new models.
- fn-mote 10d ago> who trained models on scraped internet data The strongest complaint is that they trained on a huge corpus of pirated copyrighted works. It’s a large step above “scraping” and well into the “everyone acknowledges this is illegal” territory.
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- rsrsrs86 10d agoDid I read openAI and integrity in the same sentence? The whole business is built on plagiarizing human knowledge at scale