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What is "actual success?" Because I'd find it pretty unbelievable that you got even close to being able to hold a conversation or read a YA novel from Duolingo.

trueno 9d ago
i think anyone who's done even a modicum of research knows that holding a conversation isnt going to come from an app or a library and actually being out there having convos with either a tutor or just all out immersion is required. then reading literature, consuming media in the other language yes your point is made duolingo isnt going to do these things for you. those initial stages of learning another language even the enshittified duolingo can help get a basic framework going. is it the best resource no absolutely not but it certainly can let people get their feet wet and even doing that is an "actual success" especially if it's something they otherwise wouldn't do.
- eudamoniac 9d ago
  Getting feet wet is not a success though because it doesn't achieve anything. It is the beginning of maybe succeeding at something. The following sentence would be silly: "I used an app to learn programming, by writing hello world, and had actual success with it."
  - watwut 9d ago
    Except that getting feet wet here means "making you capable to progress by reading literature and watch movies". That is more then just writing hello word. That is equivalent of "taught me basic programming, so I was able to write my first javascript game and continue learning by doing own projects". That definitely has large value for someone at 0.
  - trueno 9d ago
    > Getting feet wet is not a success though It literally is maybe not by your metric but someone elses metric that can absolutely be a success. Sometimes getting up in the morning is a success for people I've been there I know what that's like. I'm kind of amused at the gatekeeping of what a 'success' is here. Guy said he has literally learned things that have stuck with him sounds like something he marks as a success to me, not like he was taking the course for college credit and had to demonstrate fluency lol edit: yea the guy is now consuming media in a foreign language and has had small convos based on what he learned on duolingo. idk man smells like success
    - eudamoniac 9d ago
      Why are you arguing against what you just said and against the comment I made before OP responded? "anyone who's done even a modicum of research knows that holding a conversation... reading literature, consuming media...duolingo isnt going to do these things for you." Your edit makes it sound like not only did I argue that what he did is not success, but that thinking so was dumb, while we both thought the same thing five minutes ago. In fact I argued that beginning a task does not constitute success in that task. If OP is not exaggerating his success that is highly impressive and hard to believe, so good for him. That had nothing to do with anything else I said though.
watwut 9d ago
At this point, I can read a crime novel and read that last pope writing (got curious took spanish version, no dictionary cause it is printed version). I can watch some netflix shows with no subtitles at all - Seinfield, crime shows, documentaries, that sort of thing. I cant watch stuff with more complicated vocabulary ("you" or "the good place" are harder). I listen to spanish radio - causual shows about world news or audiodramas like "retornados". I had an easy small talk once. I dont have people to converse with and honestly dont care about it. Duolingo claims its courses go a little over B1 - you start B2 content but dont finish it. So, it would be unreasonable to expect full on conversation considering I did not finished it. And yes, it is normal for me to not finish long thing I started. When I could watch netflix I ended up binging on it, it was fun, so I dropped the rest. I mean, not doing 10min of duolingo meant watching 10min more.
- TFNA 8d ago
  You seem to think of language learning only as learning for passive media consumption, and the plethora of mistakes in your English rather underscores that. Most people learning a language want more than that, e.g. being able to achieve at least a B1 level in all categories for social, job, or residence-permit/citizenship test reasons. And for those masses, Duolingo is a shit way to learn.
  - watwut 8d ago
    1.) What most people want is not relevant here. Ability to consume media is an undeniable proof that I did in fact learned a lot. The exact order in which I learn things is not important, result is real world skill I gained. 2.) You do not know what most people want. You are making a wild guess, based on nothing. You know even less about what most people attracted to Duolingo want. 3.) Most people who need to learn foreign language for school or work reason still dislike language learning. Most people find it both boring and draining. A tool that makes it not sux is a big deal for those people too. 4.) You suggested textbooks. You will NOT pass B1 test with textbooks only. You will have serious issues with listening comprehension. Even if you are that unusual kind of person that will persist learning alone from textbook. 5.) You can pass B1 test with Duolingo only. That is not something unusual or exceptional, it actually gives you everything you need for that particular formal test. B1 is not that high. 6.) People who learn from comprehensible input only/primary are also able to pass B1 tests. 8.) A lot of passive media consumption is necessary for learning foreign language. No matter whether you use textbook or Duolingo or comprehensible input, consuming media is the core part of it all.

trueno 9d ago

i think anyone who's done even a modicum of research knows that holding a conversation isnt going to come from an app or a library and actually being out there having convos with either a tutor or just all out immersion is required. then reading literature, consuming media in the other language yes your point is made duolingo isnt going to do these things for you. those initial stages of learning another language even the enshittified duolingo can help get a basic framework going. is it the best resource no absolutely not but it certainly can let people get their feet wet and even doing that is an "actual success" especially if it's something they otherwise wouldn't do.

eudamoniac 9d ago
Getting feet wet is not a success though because it doesn't achieve anything. It is the beginning of maybe succeeding at something. The following sentence would be silly: "I used an app to learn programming, by writing hello world, and had actual success with it."
- watwut 9d ago
  Except that getting feet wet here means "making you capable to progress by reading literature and watch movies". That is more then just writing hello word. That is equivalent of "taught me basic programming, so I was able to write my first javascript game and continue learning by doing own projects". That definitely has large value for someone at 0.
- trueno 9d ago
  > Getting feet wet is not a success though It literally is maybe not by your metric but someone elses metric that can absolutely be a success. Sometimes getting up in the morning is a success for people I've been there I know what that's like. I'm kind of amused at the gatekeeping of what a 'success' is here. Guy said he has literally learned things that have stuck with him sounds like something he marks as a success to me, not like he was taking the course for college credit and had to demonstrate fluency lol edit: yea the guy is now consuming media in a foreign language and has had small convos based on what he learned on duolingo. idk man smells like success
  - eudamoniac 9d ago
    Why are you arguing against what you just said and against the comment I made before OP responded? "anyone who's done even a modicum of research knows that holding a conversation... reading literature, consuming media...duolingo isnt going to do these things for you." Your edit makes it sound like not only did I argue that what he did is not success, but that thinking so was dumb, while we both thought the same thing five minutes ago. In fact I argued that beginning a task does not constitute success in that task. If OP is not exaggerating his success that is highly impressive and hard to believe, so good for him. That had nothing to do with anything else I said though.

watwut 9d ago

At this point, I can read a crime novel and read that last pope writing (got curious took spanish version, no dictionary cause it is printed version). I can watch some netflix shows with no subtitles at all - Seinfield, crime shows, documentaries, that sort of thing. I cant watch stuff with more complicated vocabulary ("you" or "the good place" are harder). I listen to spanish radio - causual shows about world news or audiodramas like "retornados". I had an easy small talk once. I dont have people to converse with and honestly dont care about it. Duolingo claims its courses go a little over B1 - you start B2 content but dont finish it. So, it would be unreasonable to expect full on conversation considering I did not finished it. And yes, it is normal for me to not finish long thing I started. When I could watch netflix I ended up binging on it, it was fun, so I dropped the rest. I mean, not doing 10min of duolingo meant watching 10min more.

TFNA 8d ago
You seem to think of language learning only as learning for passive media consumption, and the plethora of mistakes in your English rather underscores that. Most people learning a language want more than that, e.g. being able to achieve at least a B1 level in all categories for social, job, or residence-permit/citizenship test reasons. And for those masses, Duolingo is a shit way to learn.
- watwut 8d ago
  1.) What most people want is not relevant here. Ability to consume media is an undeniable proof that I did in fact learned a lot. The exact order in which I learn things is not important, result is real world skill I gained. 2.) You do not know what most people want. You are making a wild guess, based on nothing. You know even less about what most people attracted to Duolingo want. 3.) Most people who need to learn foreign language for school or work reason still dislike language learning. Most people find it both boring and draining. A tool that makes it not sux is a big deal for those people too. 4.) You suggested textbooks. You will NOT pass B1 test with textbooks only. You will have serious issues with listening comprehension. Even if you are that unusual kind of person that will persist learning alone from textbook. 5.) You can pass B1 test with Duolingo only. That is not something unusual or exceptional, it actually gives you everything you need for that particular formal test. B1 is not that high. 6.) People who learn from comprehensible input only/primary are also able to pass B1 tests. 8.) A lot of passive media consumption is necessary for learning foreign language. No matter whether you use textbook or Duolingo or comprehensible input, consuming media is the core part of it all.