7 ms·

The general scam of unrealistic promises then under-delivering is such a well worn trope that while gender surely played a part in it (as it is a big part of so

by tdb7893 10d ago

The general scam of unrealistic promises then under-delivering is such a well worn trope that while gender surely played a part in it (as it is a big part of social perceptions in general) I hesitate to blame it here. I think for anyone who has been in tech for a while it doesn't take an imagination to picture a man doing pretty much the same thing

embedding-shape 10d ago
Yeah, the same is maybe more obvious outside of HN, but engineer/tech companies often play the same trope but on "brilliant and smart people but bit naive/rose-tinted views that couldn't unintentionally harm anyone even if they tried", like how media showcased Zuckerberg initially, before everyone realized his true colors.
- watwut 10d ago
  They still say it about Sam Bankman Friendman and that failed situation awareness fund dude that worked for him. They will even argue, forever, that the situation awareness did not failed or folded, because being margin called does not count when bright smart young person gets margin called.
  - aanet 9d ago
    Let’s not forget the new new wunderkind who was hailed as the new financial genius and whose AI fund got trash sold to Citadel for 20% of its value (after rising 450% of course)
- noir_lord 10d ago
  Musk as well among others.
  - xyzelement 10d ago
    I find this a week comparison. I've driven a Tesla, I've used PayPal. My government has used spaceX to do space things. Whatever you think of Musk there's a significant amount of "actually exists and works" that's on a different planet vs Theranos
    - noir_lord 10d ago
      > but engineer/tech companies often play the same trope but on "brilliant and smart people but bit naive/rose-tinted views that couldn't unintentionally harm anyone even if they tried" Was referring more towards that before he went full mask off he was "that guy who does EV's" to anyone not paying close attention.
    - FireBeyond 10d ago
      Don't use PayPal when pointing to an achievement of Musk's. PayPal was already a working prototype, trademarked, and ready to go when Musk's failing-to-take-off online bank merged with them. Musk was made CEO because he was the largest shareholder when they tried to figure out relative valuations at the merger. He lasted four months. Spent most of it arguing with engineering about throwing away the full working prototype in favor of rewriting it from scratch in a language he understood, and arguing with the board about whether or not that was really what he should be focused on as CEO. He lasted four months. And in a world where executives resign, or "spend time with their family", etc., the Board of PayPal, having just attended Musk's wedding that weekend, publicly fired him on Monday morning as he was boarding a plane to go to his honeymoon. That is how bad it was. Musk's actual contribution to PayPal is mostly "cashing the dividend checks".
      - phatfish 9d ago
        https://every.to/p/twitter-s-future-is-a-return-to-elon-musk-s-past-2c11ace6-940b-4d12-a584-3a6ea3bfd081 https://every.to/p/twitter-s-future-is-a-return-to-elon-musk... https://archive.ph/nRXv1 https://archive.ph/nRXv1
    - deleted 10d ago
      [deleted]
etchalon 10d ago
I mean, plenty of men have done the same thing. No imagination required.
TheOtherHobbes 10d ago
Gender etc provided a new vector. The lack of awareness was the prof not realising corporate and upper class women are just as capable of being con artists with a dysfunctional grasp on reality as men are. (Other women are too, but they don't get the opportunities.) It's an ironically sexist assumption. Although at the same time men are less likely to face consequences - unless they defraud big-ticket investors without prior permission. Which was the true crime here, and the only one that matters at these levels.
- suburban_strike 8d ago
  > Although at the same time men are less likely to face consequences This is a lie. Look at the OIG's blotter-- every name on it is going to be male. Women comprise 60% of all embezzlement convictions. Women also occupy 60% of all accounting jobs. You'll see men facing consequences more, when you give men more opportunity to steal. https://www.americanbanker.com/news/why-are-more-women-convicted-of-embezzlement-than-men https://www.americanbanker.com/news/why-are-more-women-convi...
- makeset 10d ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect
sandworm101 10d ago
And the general scam of an attractive young woman speaking to a bunch of elderly men (realy, look up the early investors) and somehow convincing them to part with thier money is as old as time. Heck, Henry kissinger was on her board.
- xXSLAYERXx 10d ago
  She'd kill it at the hotdog cart
slg 10d ago
"The general scam of unrealistic promises then under-delivering" is how the richest man on the planet amassed his wealth. OP is doing the exact same thing he's accusing other people of doing, focusing too much on identity. Holmes surely used her gender as a tool the same way all these striving psychopaths will use whatever is at their disposal, but if it wasn't her gender, it just would have been something else. And singling out her gender as uniquely responsible will do more harm than good as it will be used as a cudgel against all future women founders in a way someone like Musk or Sam Bankman-Fried won't for men. Or maybe this early xkcd[1] put it better. [1] - https://xkcd.com/385/ https://xkcd.com/385/
- frumplestlatz 10d ago
  Dishonest people use social causes as camouflage, and the more unassailable the cause, the more effective it is.
  - owebmaster 10d ago
    Same way dishonest people use examples like her to attack social causes.
    - frumplestlatz 9d ago
      Which is why everything should be open for robust questioning and debate, and individual cases made on their own merit — not based on whatever favored group characteristic happens to put someone or something beyond debate.
gdilla 9d ago
True enough. The diversity + under-delivering was just a refreshing change for the valley to again fool themselves into being clever again.

by tdb7893 10d ago

embedding-shape 10d ago

Yeah, the same is maybe more obvious outside of HN, but engineer/tech companies often play the same trope but on "brilliant and smart people but bit naive/rose-tinted views that couldn't unintentionally harm anyone even if they tried", like how media showcased Zuckerberg initially, before everyone realized his true colors.

watwut 10d ago
They still say it about Sam Bankman Friendman and that failed situation awareness fund dude that worked for him. They will even argue, forever, that the situation awareness did not failed or folded, because being margin called does not count when bright smart young person gets margin called.
- aanet 9d ago
  Let’s not forget the new new wunderkind who was hailed as the new financial genius and whose AI fund got trash sold to Citadel for 20% of its value (after rising 450% of course)
noir_lord 10d ago
Musk as well among others.
- xyzelement 10d ago
  I find this a week comparison. I've driven a Tesla, I've used PayPal. My government has used spaceX to do space things. Whatever you think of Musk there's a significant amount of "actually exists and works" that's on a different planet vs Theranos
  - noir_lord 10d ago
    > but engineer/tech companies often play the same trope but on "brilliant and smart people but bit naive/rose-tinted views that couldn't unintentionally harm anyone even if they tried" Was referring more towards that before he went full mask off he was "that guy who does EV's" to anyone not paying close attention.
  - FireBeyond 10d ago
    Don't use PayPal when pointing to an achievement of Musk's. PayPal was already a working prototype, trademarked, and ready to go when Musk's failing-to-take-off online bank merged with them. Musk was made CEO because he was the largest shareholder when they tried to figure out relative valuations at the merger. He lasted four months. Spent most of it arguing with engineering about throwing away the full working prototype in favor of rewriting it from scratch in a language he understood, and arguing with the board about whether or not that was really what he should be focused on as CEO. He lasted four months. And in a world where executives resign, or "spend time with their family", etc., the Board of PayPal, having just attended Musk's wedding that weekend, publicly fired him on Monday morning as he was boarding a plane to go to his honeymoon. That is how bad it was. Musk's actual contribution to PayPal is mostly "cashing the dividend checks".
    - phatfish 9d ago
      https://every.to/p/twitter-s-future-is-a-return-to-elon-musk-s-past-2c11ace6-940b-4d12-a584-3a6ea3bfd081 https://every.to/p/twitter-s-future-is-a-return-to-elon-musk... https://archive.ph/nRXv1 https://archive.ph/nRXv1
  - deleted 10d ago
    [deleted]

etchalon 10d ago

I mean, plenty of men have done the same thing. No imagination required.

TheOtherHobbes 10d ago

Gender etc provided a new vector. The lack of awareness was the prof not realising corporate and upper class women are just as capable of being con artists with a dysfunctional grasp on reality as men are. (Other women are too, but they don't get the opportunities.) It's an ironically sexist assumption. Although at the same time men are less likely to face consequences - unless they defraud big-ticket investors without prior permission. Which was the true crime here, and the only one that matters at these levels.

suburban_strike 8d ago
> Although at the same time men are less likely to face consequences This is a lie. Look at the OIG's blotter-- every name on it is going to be male. Women comprise 60% of all embezzlement convictions. Women also occupy 60% of all accounting jobs. You'll see men facing consequences more, when you give men more opportunity to steal. https://www.americanbanker.com/news/why-are-more-women-convicted-of-embezzlement-than-men https://www.americanbanker.com/news/why-are-more-women-convi...
makeset 10d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect

sandworm101 10d ago

And the general scam of an attractive young woman speaking to a bunch of elderly men (realy, look up the early investors) and somehow convincing them to part with thier money is as old as time. Heck, Henry kissinger was on her board.

xXSLAYERXx 10d ago
She'd kill it at the hotdog cart

slg 10d ago

"The general scam of unrealistic promises then under-delivering" is how the richest man on the planet amassed his wealth. OP is doing the exact same thing he's accusing other people of doing, focusing too much on identity. Holmes surely used her gender as a tool the same way all these striving psychopaths will use whatever is at their disposal, but if it wasn't her gender, it just would have been something else. And singling out her gender as uniquely responsible will do more harm than good as it will be used as a cudgel against all future women founders in a way someone like Musk or Sam Bankman-Fried won't for men. Or maybe this early xkcd[1] put it better. [1] - https://xkcd.com/385/ https://xkcd.com/385/

frumplestlatz 10d ago
Dishonest people use social causes as camouflage, and the more unassailable the cause, the more effective it is.
- owebmaster 10d ago
  Same way dishonest people use examples like her to attack social causes.
  - frumplestlatz 9d ago
    Which is why everything should be open for robust questioning and debate, and individual cases made on their own merit — not based on whatever favored group characteristic happens to put someone or something beyond debate.

gdilla 9d ago

True enough. The diversity + under-delivering was just a refreshing change for the valley to again fool themselves into being clever again.