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So in good faith I went to dig a bit what's the holdout in our debate here, and it's because I didn't understand two separate uses of anarchism, the one that's

So in good faith I went to dig a bit what's the holdout in our debate here, and it's because I didn't understand two separate uses of anarchism, the one that's epistemological, anarchism as anti-foundationalism, my point, and your point that's political. In political anarchism we don't have this pressure to question every single thing, so when you said Socialist Anarchism I should have gone and read what that is had I known this distinction beforehand. TLDR, you are right and I'm not necessarily wrong, we were just talking about two different things.

jrflowers 11d ago
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lrvick 10d ago
> I should have gone and read what that is That is the most capacity for growth I have seen demonstrated in a while. You just gave me slightly more hope in humanity.
- gchamonlive 10d ago
  I just wish I had a less aggressive or snarky style of writing. Maybe then I'd invite people for a discussion and not for exchanging heartbreak, but we are products of our context and certainty is what's currently rewarded, not doubt.
  - lrvick 10d ago
    > I just wish I had a less aggressive or snarky style of writing. You and me both. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard variations of "you are way less of an asshole in person" Complex asynchronous communication always has a way of forcing the temperature higher than it needs to be because we have more time to wordsmith and the cost of feeling stupid can be multiplied by the size of the perceived audience. Often the same two people would have had a much better interaction in person where each sees the other as a human being speaking with their own voice and facial expressions.
mxmilkiib 10d ago
indeed, the context here is political/organisational rather than epistemological anarchist organisational practices are real people have been creating solutions to counter "The Tyranny of Structurelessness" for many decades now coarsely put, anarchists (and work/housing co-ops, and protest groups) most generally favour consensus-process with proper anti-slow facilitation and role rotation, vs the [usually] majority voting systems and power dichotomies that are the style of communism (see democratic centeralism) though many places just don't mention this essentially counts as anarchism (or libertarian socialism), cos a) the stigma, b) they just don't need to or know to, c) they do, just behind closed doors "horizontalism/horizontalidad" has been a good descriptor https://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/guides https://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/guides https://www.radicalroutes.org.uk/structure-and-governance https://www.radicalroutes.org.uk/structure-and-governance see also sociocracy, and Murray Bookchin and the whole range of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism plus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_communism in general
- capr 10d ago
  libertarian socialism is an oxymoron
  - gchamonlive 10d ago
    Not necessarily I think, because socialism need not be authoritarian, I don't know how, maybe in a thousand years when the society collectively reached higher levels of moral development. But my intuition is that for libertarian socialism to exist, people need to agree and desire to converge to a golden mean ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy) ) instead of being incentivised to accumulate as much wealth and power as possible.
    - alsetmusic 10d ago
      > socialism need not be authoritarian True socialism is the opposite of authoritarianism. Simply put, it's taking care of everyone. Just because the label has been misused doesn't change the goal of those of us who identify as socialists. USA propaganda made it a bad word. > As one of the main ideologies on the political spectrum, socialism is the standard left-wing ideology in most countries. [0] 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

jrflowers 11d ago

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lrvick 10d ago

> I should have gone and read what that is That is the most capacity for growth I have seen demonstrated in a while. You just gave me slightly more hope in humanity.

gchamonlive 10d ago
I just wish I had a less aggressive or snarky style of writing. Maybe then I'd invite people for a discussion and not for exchanging heartbreak, but we are products of our context and certainty is what's currently rewarded, not doubt.
- lrvick 10d ago
  > I just wish I had a less aggressive or snarky style of writing. You and me both. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard variations of "you are way less of an asshole in person" Complex asynchronous communication always has a way of forcing the temperature higher than it needs to be because we have more time to wordsmith and the cost of feeling stupid can be multiplied by the size of the perceived audience. Often the same two people would have had a much better interaction in person where each sees the other as a human being speaking with their own voice and facial expressions.

mxmilkiib 10d ago

indeed, the context here is political/organisational rather than epistemological anarchist organisational practices are real people have been creating solutions to counter "The Tyranny of Structurelessness" for many decades now coarsely put, anarchists (and work/housing co-ops, and protest groups) most generally favour consensus-process with proper anti-slow facilitation and role rotation, vs the [usually] majority voting systems and power dichotomies that are the style of communism (see democratic centeralism) though many places just don't mention this essentially counts as anarchism (or libertarian socialism), cos a) the stigma, b) they just don't need to or know to, c) they do, just behind closed doors "horizontalism/horizontalidad" has been a good descriptor https://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/guides https://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/guides https://www.radicalroutes.org.uk/structure-and-governance https://www.radicalroutes.org.uk/structure-and-governance see also sociocracy, and Murray Bookchin and the whole range of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism plus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_communism in general

capr 10d ago
libertarian socialism is an oxymoron
- gchamonlive 10d ago
  Not necessarily I think, because socialism need not be authoritarian, I don't know how, maybe in a thousand years when the society collectively reached higher levels of moral development. But my intuition is that for libertarian socialism to exist, people need to agree and desire to converge to a golden mean ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_mean_(philosophy) ) instead of being incentivised to accumulate as much wealth and power as possible.
  - alsetmusic 10d ago
    > socialism need not be authoritarian True socialism is the opposite of authoritarianism. Simply put, it's taking care of everyone. Just because the label has been misused doesn't change the goal of those of us who identify as socialists. USA propaganda made it a bad word. > As one of the main ideologies on the political spectrum, socialism is the standard left-wing ideology in most countries. [0] 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism