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Yes, but there is zero shot at doing this versus energy and transportation. The major limiter of veganism is cultural. People love eating meat. It’s a major so

by tyre 11d ago

Yes, but there is zero shot at doing this versus energy and transportation. The major limiter of veganism is cultural. People love eating meat. It’s a major source of protein and calories, especially in developing countries. Americans are not going vegan, so it’s kind of silly, in my opinion, to focus on it as a solution. Compare to building nuclear energy or solar / wind + batteries. China, the US, Europe, and India are all well-positioned to do this. The limitation is political will, which is more difficult than it should be, but definitely easier than convincing a critical mass of Americans to go vegan.

bix6 11d ago
How come veganism is cultural but alternative energy is political? Could one not be the other?
- adrianN 11d ago
  My washing machine doesn’t care how the electricity is produced, but most people can tell a vegan dish from a steak.
  - exe34 11d ago
    Unless they can't, then they get very angry: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Di55DEnNkUs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Di55DEnNkUs It's tied to their identity for a lot of people. The same kinds that will drive a huge SUV to compensate for the hole in their lives where meaning and connection is supposed to be.
    - adrianN 11d ago
      I don’t think that is a majority behavior. Few people consume to own the libs. At least far fewer people than those who just like meat more than they care about their marginal contributions to climate change.
      - wookmaster 11d ago
        A lot of people go into denial/defensive mechanisms if you try and point out what they're doing is bad.
      - tstrimple 11d ago
        Given who the president of the United States is. They are at least a plurality.
        adrianN 11d ago
        I think that’sa harmful oversimplification. You should avoid arguing against a boogeyman version of your political opponents. People vote for crazy candidates for a multitude of reasons. Most people have fairly average opinions on the majority of topics but can only vote for candidates that partially represent their preferences. I for example have fairly radical preferences when it comes to environmental policy but agree more with conservative opinions on other topics. There are no parties in my country that promise to make me completely happy. The broken US voting system amplifies the effect.
        tstrimple 10d ago
        Stop being so fucking patronizing. I was raised by these people. Most of my family are still these people. I’ve experienced their bullshit for over 40 years. Your high minded nonsense in no way applies. I see what they cheer for.
        adrianN 10d ago
        I don’t claim that nobody matches the stereotype.
        tstrimple 9d ago
        And here you are playing their fucking game. They wouldn't be such degenerate shitheads if people weren't mean to them. As if there isn't a strong line of cruelty throughout all of conservative history in this country. Your argument is she wouldn't have been raped if she hasn't been wearing what she was wearing. That black boy wouldn't have been lynched if he hadn't cat-called a white woman. Regardless of whether or not he actually did. It puts the fault of the worst of our society on the normal folks just trying to live their lives. Conservatives are shit people because are incapable of empathy for the out-group. Not because liberals were mean to them online.
- bluefirebrand 11d ago
  Energy policy is set by governments, which makes it a part of the political sphere Veganism is an individual choice, and individual choices are generally pushed by culture Of course culture and politics influence each other in a myriad of ways, but when people start to try and push individual choices like being vegan into the political space it is never very popular I personally would fight tooth and nail to prevent veganism from becoming a law in my country. Failing that I would immediately make plans to move somewhere else. That's not something most countries want
allannienhuis 11d ago
Culture can be changed - we changed the attitude toward and prevalence of cigarette smoking in 2-3 generations, we could change other practices as well. Success doesn't need to mean 100% adoption - material changes in attitude toward meat consumption (luxury/celebration vs everyday) would make a material difference in the overall impact. And yes, some/many ranchers, butchers, etc would need to turn to some other industry for income. Solar farms should do pretty well on ranchland. Full disclosure - I'm NOT a vegetarian and love a nice steak. My doctor has recommended I incorporate more plant protein in my diet. But I'm not really trying to convince anyone that they should do the same. I'm mostly reacting to the opinion that it's impossible/silly. My 2 pack a day smoker dad thought the same thing back in the 1960s. By the time he was in his 70s, he was a firm non-smoker. Things can change. Edit: I'm also not trying to equate eating meat with smoking - one is obviously more harmful to society than the other. I'm just thinking about the cultural change that happened. Culture is malleable. Laws aren't a great way to affect culture, but social pressure is really effective.
- senordevnyc 11d ago
  I think the difference is that smoking is also horrible for the smoker, and many want to quit, but can’t very easily. People don’t want to stop eating meat, driving their SUVs, buying cheap shit on Amazon, and flying to cool vacations. Stopping doing those things doesn’t benefit them unless everyone else stops too, and unlike smoking, we’ve made little progress in the last few decades (other than the progress unlocked by technology that means it’s immediately beneficial to the one making the change, like solar), so I can’t blame anyone for thinking that giving up meat to save the planet is stupid since their entire lifetime of lived experience tells them that the vast majority of their fellow humans are not going to do the same.
- belorn 10d ago
  Culture can be changed indeed, as can be seen in religion where branches has happened and whole demographics has gone and switched to different religions. The reason for the decrease in smoking is still being researched and debate, but the main arguments that I have seen is the main role of smoking as social stress relief and as such it has been replaced by other addictions like opium use (mobile phone use, social media, and games has also been argued). If we consider food culture to be malleable, we definitely should move to aquaculture as a main source of nutrients. Farms on land compete with forests and human activity, and land based farms uses artificial fertilizers (derived from natural gas) and massive amount of fresh water. Shellfish, invertebrates, and seaweed can provide both protein and calories, and has the lowest environmental impact of anything we eat today and can even have a positive environmental impact if farmed correctly. Changing farming from doing harm to doing good would have massive impact, and all it takes is a cultural change.
eptcyka 11d ago
Going vegan 1 day a week is trivially easy - if everyone does this, the emission reduction is not trivial. We need not have to go full militant vegan to make a dent. And I totally agree with energy/transit/real estate planning being the sectors where a government can twist knobs a bit easier with greater effect. But I strongly believe that we need holistic approaches- reducing emissions on an individual level will move the needle en masse.
LargoLasskhyfv 11d ago
> developing countries – Americans

by tyre 11d ago

bix6 11d ago

How come veganism is cultural but alternative energy is political? Could one not be the other?

adrianN 11d ago
My washing machine doesn’t care how the electricity is produced, but most people can tell a vegan dish from a steak.
- exe34 11d ago
  Unless they can't, then they get very angry: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Di55DEnNkUs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Di55DEnNkUs It's tied to their identity for a lot of people. The same kinds that will drive a huge SUV to compensate for the hole in their lives where meaning and connection is supposed to be.
  - adrianN 11d ago
    I don’t think that is a majority behavior. Few people consume to own the libs. At least far fewer people than those who just like meat more than they care about their marginal contributions to climate change.
    - wookmaster 11d ago
      A lot of people go into denial/defensive mechanisms if you try and point out what they're doing is bad.
    - tstrimple 11d ago
      Given who the president of the United States is. They are at least a plurality.
      - adrianN 11d ago
        I think that’sa harmful oversimplification. You should avoid arguing against a boogeyman version of your political opponents. People vote for crazy candidates for a multitude of reasons. Most people have fairly average opinions on the majority of topics but can only vote for candidates that partially represent their preferences. I for example have fairly radical preferences when it comes to environmental policy but agree more with conservative opinions on other topics. There are no parties in my country that promise to make me completely happy. The broken US voting system amplifies the effect.
        tstrimple 10d ago
        Stop being so fucking patronizing. I was raised by these people. Most of my family are still these people. I’ve experienced their bullshit for over 40 years. Your high minded nonsense in no way applies. I see what they cheer for.
        adrianN 10d ago
        I don’t claim that nobody matches the stereotype.
        tstrimple 9d ago
        And here you are playing their fucking game. They wouldn't be such degenerate shitheads if people weren't mean to them. As if there isn't a strong line of cruelty throughout all of conservative history in this country. Your argument is she wouldn't have been raped if she hasn't been wearing what she was wearing. That black boy wouldn't have been lynched if he hadn't cat-called a white woman. Regardless of whether or not he actually did. It puts the fault of the worst of our society on the normal folks just trying to live their lives. Conservatives are shit people because are incapable of empathy for the out-group. Not because liberals were mean to them online.
bluefirebrand 11d ago
Energy policy is set by governments, which makes it a part of the political sphere Veganism is an individual choice, and individual choices are generally pushed by culture Of course culture and politics influence each other in a myriad of ways, but when people start to try and push individual choices like being vegan into the political space it is never very popular I personally would fight tooth and nail to prevent veganism from becoming a law in my country. Failing that I would immediately make plans to move somewhere else. That's not something most countries want

allannienhuis 11d ago

Culture can be changed - we changed the attitude toward and prevalence of cigarette smoking in 2-3 generations, we could change other practices as well. Success doesn't need to mean 100% adoption - material changes in attitude toward meat consumption (luxury/celebration vs everyday) would make a material difference in the overall impact. And yes, some/many ranchers, butchers, etc would need to turn to some other industry for income. Solar farms should do pretty well on ranchland. Full disclosure - I'm NOT a vegetarian and love a nice steak. My doctor has recommended I incorporate more plant protein in my diet. But I'm not really trying to convince anyone that they should do the same. I'm mostly reacting to the opinion that it's impossible/silly. My 2 pack a day smoker dad thought the same thing back in the 1960s. By the time he was in his 70s, he was a firm non-smoker. Things can change. Edit: I'm also not trying to equate eating meat with smoking - one is obviously more harmful to society than the other. I'm just thinking about the cultural change that happened. Culture is malleable. Laws aren't a great way to affect culture, but social pressure is really effective.

senordevnyc 11d ago
I think the difference is that smoking is also horrible for the smoker, and many want to quit, but can’t very easily. People don’t want to stop eating meat, driving their SUVs, buying cheap shit on Amazon, and flying to cool vacations. Stopping doing those things doesn’t benefit them unless everyone else stops too, and unlike smoking, we’ve made little progress in the last few decades (other than the progress unlocked by technology that means it’s immediately beneficial to the one making the change, like solar), so I can’t blame anyone for thinking that giving up meat to save the planet is stupid since their entire lifetime of lived experience tells them that the vast majority of their fellow humans are not going to do the same.
belorn 10d ago
Culture can be changed indeed, as can be seen in religion where branches has happened and whole demographics has gone and switched to different religions. The reason for the decrease in smoking is still being researched and debate, but the main arguments that I have seen is the main role of smoking as social stress relief and as such it has been replaced by other addictions like opium use (mobile phone use, social media, and games has also been argued). If we consider food culture to be malleable, we definitely should move to aquaculture as a main source of nutrients. Farms on land compete with forests and human activity, and land based farms uses artificial fertilizers (derived from natural gas) and massive amount of fresh water. Shellfish, invertebrates, and seaweed can provide both protein and calories, and has the lowest environmental impact of anything we eat today and can even have a positive environmental impact if farmed correctly. Changing farming from doing harm to doing good would have massive impact, and all it takes is a cultural change.

eptcyka 11d ago

Going vegan 1 day a week is trivially easy - if everyone does this, the emission reduction is not trivial. We need not have to go full militant vegan to make a dent. And I totally agree with energy/transit/real estate planning being the sectors where a government can twist knobs a bit easier with greater effect. But I strongly believe that we need holistic approaches- reducing emissions on an individual level will move the needle en masse.

LargoLasskhyfv 11d ago

> developing countries – Americans