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> The German courts entirely disregarded our use of geo-IP lookups on queries, and asserted that since tests via a VPN were able to resolve the domain, we were

> The German courts entirely disregarded our use of geo-IP lookups on queries, and asserted that since tests via a VPN were able to resolve the domain, we were in breach of court orders Seriously, what the fuck? So you're supposed to block VPNs as well? What's next, Tor exit nodes? New VPN and Tor nodes as they pop up? I really don't like where this is going.

jwitthuhn 12d ago
The entire point is that it can't be reasonably enforced with any granularity. Rights-holders want it to be like that so a copyright win in a single country means something has to be taken down globally.
- loup-vaillant 12d ago
  My fear exactly.
- Henchman21 12d ago
  Sounds more like we should end copyright worldwide.
  - jMyles 12d ago
    Indeed it needs to happen, and even here on HN, it can be difficult for some to admit and acknowledge. It'd be great for this to be the first major relinquishment of nation-state power to happen without violence, without backroom deals, without wedge politics and flag waving. Just... let it go. It's beyond obvious that copyright is not going to exist in 1000 years. Every creature on earth - especially the internet - survives by copying information. It's the most basic life force in the universe. Copyright is serving exactly nobody today. It's time. Are there elder stateswo/men in the room who can see the writing on the wall and act with grace?
    - otterley 12d ago
      > Copyright is serving exactly nobody today Except for nearly everyone who writes anything (including software) or other artistic pursuits to make a living. This includes a majority of people here on HN.
      - cannonpr 12d ago
        I’ve written software all my life, copyright has never been relevant to my earnings at all, trade secrets have been to some extent. Frankly copyright was meant to enable more sharing and benefiting the public domain, instead it’s become a cancer…
        otterley 12d ago
        For every rule there is an exception.
        deleted 12d ago
        [deleted]
        loup-vaillant 10d ago
        I love the self contradiction in this one.
      - denkmoon 12d ago
        yeah I wouldn't be able to put food on the table if my employer didn't have exclusive license to the glue we use to stick together all that open source code we rely on. Which we now generate exclusively using AI, products of which are of unclear copyright status. Modern IP law inhibits productivity more than it helps, imo. LLMs have fundamentally changed our line of work, and they have done so by completely ignoring the existing legal framework for IP. We should not defend the current implementation just because some people might suffer reduced earning potential.
        otterley 12d ago
  - throwaway050920 11d ago
    As language models are tolerated that is only fair in my opinion. If they are allowed to be trained with GPL licensed, copyrighted and so on data then copyright should vanish also for everyone else. The existence of LLMs with the current laws is just unfair.
  - brookst 11d ago
    There may be a middle ground between the current maximalist copyright regime and ending copyright altogether.
    - PinkSheep 11d ago
      And this is why I will continue supporting the position of "ending copyright altogether": Average of (current maximalist copyright; ending copyright) is what you called middle ground. Average of a sensible position like (current maximalist copyright; ending copyright divided by 2) still does not yield a sensible world where culture and art - or even human interactions - can thrive.
    - aleph_minus_one 11d ago
      > There may be a middle ground between the current maximalist copyright regime and ending copyright altogether. The trenches between the different factions are far too deep for any middle ground to have any chance.
    - Henchman21 11d ago
      Are you proposing this as a bridge to eliminating it entirely? Because to be quite frank, the “copyright holders” don’t deserve a damned thing. They’ve already robbed the commons and will continue to do so. Appeasement is the same as capitulation. And quite frankly the way things are shaping up… association is the same as guilt and I am not in a forgiving mood, having been robbed blind by these same people for my entire life.
    - account42 10d ago
      And ending copyright altogether would move us much closer to any such middle ground compared to where we are now.
- u1hcw9nx 12d ago
  The decision was reversed in the appeals court. The appellate court ruled that independent recursive DNS resolvers are too far removed from the actual infringement to be held liable.
sparkling 12d ago
>So you're supposed to block VPNs as well? What's next, Tor exit nodes? New VPN and Tor nodes as they pop up? Trivial to do nowadays: https://focsec.com/ https://focsec.com/ >I really don't like where this is going. German courts think the internet revolves around German laws. There are some really insane cases, sometimes they will consider a website to fall under German jurisdiction simply for having a German-language version (somehow ignoring that Austria and Switzerland exist, ignoring German-speaking minorities in other countries, ignoring that a fully automated translation in 100+ languages is now possible at the click of a button).
mikestorrent 12d ago
There's some irony in Germany using censorship for the purpose of ensuring people don't get into reading materials that might convince them to become... fascists who censor people
- p-e-w 12d ago
  There is no irony. The German government is proto-fascist, and has been for a while, as are several other European governments. Apparently the UK now arrests more people per capita for online speech than China does.
  - zmgsabst 12d ago
    [flagged]
    - ahartmetz 12d ago
      Mentioning evil Soros is like a 100% reliable political crackpot indicator, even though this here is a quite original take. He is usually an evil Jewish globalist, i.e. a nefarious leftist. I think he seriously pissed off the right people in Russia who are now throwing whatever shit they can think of at the wall, and some of it sticks. They do not try to be consistent at all, anything that will convince someone is fine.
      - zmgsabst 9d ago
        I’m American — I just view politics through form rather than propaganda. Eg, the concept of “left vs right” arises from USSR propaganda distancing themselves from fascists, who believed in similar practices. You should also respond to the substance of what I said, rather than engage in ad hominems.
  - ahartmetz 12d ago
    I would like to see your definition of fascism under which the German government is proto-fascist.
thi2 12d ago
German courts and technology are not always the best friends
numpad0 12d ago
German federal LE agencies have been doing it for years. Threatening to put you on lists of wanted and sanctioned individuals as a basically islamic suicide bomber for not taking down tiny things globally. That kind of thing isn't unheard of for police agencies with moral and oversight issues, though. Orgs start seeking for bigger reasons. A simple copyright issue creatively expounded into an imaginary global drug bombing cyber trafficking crime ring takedown creates a massive internal win. So they do that.
johnhtodd 12d ago
What's even worse: the court fined us because they claimed this use case was in some way in contempt of their ruling. Then, when we won the overall case, that money was never returned because it wasn't specifically referenced by the final court. The response from the lower court was effectively: "Well, you will need to sue the court to get that money back." <table flip> Edit: I'm with Quad9 (CTO)
- avhception 12d ago
  The hubris of the courts can be stunning. Sorry from Germany. And thanks for the great DNS service, I'm using it everywhere!
- u1hcw9nx 12d ago
  >wasn't specifically referenced by the final court. Maybe your lawyer fucked up? Did you immediately appeal the fine or request a stay pending the main action? Appeal court ruled on the substantive case. My understanding is that in Germany it has no procedural jurisdiction to order the state treasury to refund an enforcement fine. You need restitution claim that makes the thing yet another hoop.
  - johnhtodd 11d ago
    Cost and staff time to pursue were not significantly higher than the return. We just want to help people with security and privacy and do DNS stuff - this legal fighting is absurd and misplaced and a spectacular waste of time, but here we are.
- n0on3 11d ago
  That’s insane. Thank you for the service you provide.
- anonzzzies 11d ago
  Maybe Mullvad can help fight this type of nonsense?
itsamario 11d ago
Funny aspect is law is building demand for more capable ISP equipment devoid of principles. Anybody can change their DNS and for an ISP to perform a man in the middle on all dns they would need to inspect every packet. Impossible
dotBen 11d ago
In related news, the Spanish soccer league LaLiga successfully won an injunction against Cloudflare so that during Spanish soccer matches ISPs have to prevent access for their users to the entire Cloudflare CDN network. The reason is that the CDN network is/was being used to illegally stream games so access to the entire CDN network is closed. https://apnews.com/article/laliga-cloudflare-piracy-spanish-league-ae520f11b6926476e79fbb9954463f05 https://apnews.com/article/laliga-cloudflare-piracy-spanish-... https://hayahora.futbol/#sobre-los-bloqueos https://hayahora.futbol/#sobre-los-bloqueos (click "IN" to view in English)
- rz2k 10d ago
  There’s a reasonable solution. Banks and vital services that use Cloudflare need to win an injunction that enjoins LaLiga from playing matches.

jwitthuhn 12d ago

The entire point is that it can't be reasonably enforced with any granularity. Rights-holders want it to be like that so a copyright win in a single country means something has to be taken down globally.

loup-vaillant 12d ago
My fear exactly.
Henchman21 12d ago
Sounds more like we should end copyright worldwide.
- jMyles 12d ago
  Indeed it needs to happen, and even here on HN, it can be difficult for some to admit and acknowledge. It'd be great for this to be the first major relinquishment of nation-state power to happen without violence, without backroom deals, without wedge politics and flag waving. Just... let it go. It's beyond obvious that copyright is not going to exist in 1000 years. Every creature on earth - especially the internet - survives by copying information. It's the most basic life force in the universe. Copyright is serving exactly nobody today. It's time. Are there elder stateswo/men in the room who can see the writing on the wall and act with grace?
  - otterley 12d ago
    > Copyright is serving exactly nobody today Except for nearly everyone who writes anything (including software) or other artistic pursuits to make a living. This includes a majority of people here on HN.
    - cannonpr 12d ago
      I’ve written software all my life, copyright has never been relevant to my earnings at all, trade secrets have been to some extent. Frankly copyright was meant to enable more sharing and benefiting the public domain, instead it’s become a cancer…
      - otterley 12d ago
        For every rule there is an exception.
        deleted 12d ago
        [deleted]
        loup-vaillant 10d ago
        I love the self contradiction in this one.
    - denkmoon 12d ago
      yeah I wouldn't be able to put food on the table if my employer didn't have exclusive license to the glue we use to stick together all that open source code we rely on. Which we now generate exclusively using AI, products of which are of unclear copyright status. Modern IP law inhibits productivity more than it helps, imo. LLMs have fundamentally changed our line of work, and they have done so by completely ignoring the existing legal framework for IP. We should not defend the current implementation just because some people might suffer reduced earning potential.
      - otterley 12d ago
- throwaway050920 11d ago
  As language models are tolerated that is only fair in my opinion. If they are allowed to be trained with GPL licensed, copyrighted and so on data then copyright should vanish also for everyone else. The existence of LLMs with the current laws is just unfair.
- brookst 11d ago
  There may be a middle ground between the current maximalist copyright regime and ending copyright altogether.
  - PinkSheep 11d ago
    And this is why I will continue supporting the position of "ending copyright altogether": Average of (current maximalist copyright; ending copyright) is what you called middle ground. Average of a sensible position like (current maximalist copyright; ending copyright divided by 2) still does not yield a sensible world where culture and art - or even human interactions - can thrive.
  - aleph_minus_one 11d ago
    > There may be a middle ground between the current maximalist copyright regime and ending copyright altogether. The trenches between the different factions are far too deep for any middle ground to have any chance.
  - Henchman21 11d ago
    Are you proposing this as a bridge to eliminating it entirely? Because to be quite frank, the “copyright holders” don’t deserve a damned thing. They’ve already robbed the commons and will continue to do so. Appeasement is the same as capitulation. And quite frankly the way things are shaping up… association is the same as guilt and I am not in a forgiving mood, having been robbed blind by these same people for my entire life.
  - account42 10d ago
    And ending copyright altogether would move us much closer to any such middle ground compared to where we are now.
u1hcw9nx 12d ago
The decision was reversed in the appeals court. The appellate court ruled that independent recursive DNS resolvers are too far removed from the actual infringement to be held liable.

sparkling 12d ago

>So you're supposed to block VPNs as well? What's next, Tor exit nodes? New VPN and Tor nodes as they pop up? Trivial to do nowadays: https://focsec.com/ https://focsec.com/ >I really don't like where this is going. German courts think the internet revolves around German laws. There are some really insane cases, sometimes they will consider a website to fall under German jurisdiction simply for having a German-language version (somehow ignoring that Austria and Switzerland exist, ignoring German-speaking minorities in other countries, ignoring that a fully automated translation in 100+ languages is now possible at the click of a button).

mikestorrent 12d ago

There's some irony in Germany using censorship for the purpose of ensuring people don't get into reading materials that might convince them to become... fascists who censor people

p-e-w 12d ago
There is no irony. The German government is proto-fascist, and has been for a while, as are several other European governments. Apparently the UK now arrests more people per capita for online speech than China does.
- zmgsabst 12d ago
  [flagged]
  - ahartmetz 12d ago
    Mentioning evil Soros is like a 100% reliable political crackpot indicator, even though this here is a quite original take. He is usually an evil Jewish globalist, i.e. a nefarious leftist. I think he seriously pissed off the right people in Russia who are now throwing whatever shit they can think of at the wall, and some of it sticks. They do not try to be consistent at all, anything that will convince someone is fine.
    - zmgsabst 9d ago
      I’m American — I just view politics through form rather than propaganda. Eg, the concept of “left vs right” arises from USSR propaganda distancing themselves from fascists, who believed in similar practices. You should also respond to the substance of what I said, rather than engage in ad hominems.
- ahartmetz 12d ago
  I would like to see your definition of fascism under which the German government is proto-fascist.

thi2 12d ago

German courts and technology are not always the best friends

numpad0 12d ago

German federal LE agencies have been doing it for years. Threatening to put you on lists of wanted and sanctioned individuals as a basically islamic suicide bomber for not taking down tiny things globally. That kind of thing isn't unheard of for police agencies with moral and oversight issues, though. Orgs start seeking for bigger reasons. A simple copyright issue creatively expounded into an imaginary global drug bombing cyber trafficking crime ring takedown creates a massive internal win. So they do that.

johnhtodd 12d ago

What's even worse: the court fined us because they claimed this use case was in some way in contempt of their ruling. Then, when we won the overall case, that money was never returned because it wasn't specifically referenced by the final court. The response from the lower court was effectively: "Well, you will need to sue the court to get that money back." <table flip> Edit: I'm with Quad9 (CTO)

avhception 12d ago
The hubris of the courts can be stunning. Sorry from Germany. And thanks for the great DNS service, I'm using it everywhere!
u1hcw9nx 12d ago
>wasn't specifically referenced by the final court. Maybe your lawyer fucked up? Did you immediately appeal the fine or request a stay pending the main action? Appeal court ruled on the substantive case. My understanding is that in Germany it has no procedural jurisdiction to order the state treasury to refund an enforcement fine. You need restitution claim that makes the thing yet another hoop.
- johnhtodd 11d ago
  Cost and staff time to pursue were not significantly higher than the return. We just want to help people with security and privacy and do DNS stuff - this legal fighting is absurd and misplaced and a spectacular waste of time, but here we are.
n0on3 11d ago
That’s insane. Thank you for the service you provide.
anonzzzies 11d ago
Maybe Mullvad can help fight this type of nonsense?

itsamario 11d ago

Funny aspect is law is building demand for more capable ISP equipment devoid of principles. Anybody can change their DNS and for an ISP to perform a man in the middle on all dns they would need to inspect every packet. Impossible

dotBen 11d ago

In related news, the Spanish soccer league LaLiga successfully won an injunction against Cloudflare so that during Spanish soccer matches ISPs have to prevent access for their users to the entire Cloudflare CDN network. The reason is that the CDN network is/was being used to illegally stream games so access to the entire CDN network is closed. https://apnews.com/article/laliga-cloudflare-piracy-spanish-league-ae520f11b6926476e79fbb9954463f05 https://apnews.com/article/laliga-cloudflare-piracy-spanish-... https://hayahora.futbol/#sobre-los-bloqueos https://hayahora.futbol/#sobre-los-bloqueos (click "IN" to view in English)

rz2k 10d ago
There’s a reasonable solution. Banks and vital services that use Cloudflare need to win an injunction that enjoins LaLiga from playing matches.