7 ms·

Bin Laden's "Letter to America" (2002)

25 points by kome 13d ago

mjd 13d ago
I guess this was written in the early 2000s, while OBL was hiding in Afghanistan?
- flobosg 13d ago
  (2002) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_American_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_American_People
eclips0 13d ago
[dead]
Georgelemental 13d ago
TLD checks out
jamesdvance 13d ago
[flagged]
- krapp 13d ago
  [flagged]
  - thomassmith65 13d ago
    I would normally also roll my eyes at "They hate us for our freedoms", but a couple passages of this letter reasonably could be paraphrased as "We hate you for your freedoms". The paragraph beginning with "the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind" is a good example.
    - krapp 13d ago
      Apart from the references to Allah, that paragraph and the ones that follow are practically indistinguishable from the beliefs of many evangelical and conservative Christians, that America is an evil and secular empire corrupted by sin and vice that has turned away from God and His holy book. It just disagrees about which holy book. And that aside, many of the criticisms of the US made there are valid. The United States is a deeply hypocritical culture, presenting itself to the world as a paragon of Christian virtue while being rife with racism, misogyny and failing to actually uphold Christian values (apart from some uniquely American strain of "Christianity" that considers capitalism a virtue but empathy a sin.) The US is a violent hegemonic empire that doesn't respect international law while claiming to be the world's moral leaders. The US has undermined democracies around the world while claiming to be "leaders of the free world." The US does do vast ecological damage to the world in the name of capitalism. Granted, Bin Laden was a millionaire Saudi who funded mass murder so he was talking out of his ass on a lot of things (I wonder if the Koran has an equivalent to "take the plank out of your own eye before you complain about the speck in another's eye",) but he wasn't entirely wrong about the US. I wouldn't say the US is "the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind" but it probably would be in the top ten.
      - xorcist 12d ago
        Similarities between extremely conservative Christianism and extremely conservative Islamism? I am shocked! Seriously, has anyone ever argued that evangelicals and islamists would disagree about conservative ideas such as the role of sexuality or feminism in society? That sounds like a straw man among straw men.
        krapp 12d ago
        Did you have a salient point to make or was this just some weird reflex on your part?
madspindel 13d ago
> It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. 27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
- smusamashah 13d ago
  First message looks more reasonable to me and think that second option is not sustainable. But being a Muslim I am biased towards what I am taught.
- aziaziazi 13d ago
  One may note that the idea of violent resistance to oppression is deeply present in USA too : Right of Revolution and Second Amendment. It seems you are trying to show the peacefulness of the Christian Bible vs the Quran, but cherry-picking creates a selection bias. If one wants to find verses justifying violence, the New Testament has them too (let alone the old one) > Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." > Revelation 19:15: "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron..."
  - madspindel 13d ago
    > If one wants to find verses justifying violence, the New Testament has them too You are saying verses that do justifying violence but the ones you provided are just having the word 'sword' in them. Are you really saying that they tell me as a Christian to do violence?
    - aziaziazi 12d ago
      I'm basically saying cherry-picking creates a selection bias, which invalidated the point trying to be made. However that's a powerful technique to strengthen the idea of those already convinced. Regarding the verse I'm not sure if they imply you should do the same at home, however it's a possible interpretation.
thomassmith65 13d ago
[flagged]
- text0404 13d ago
  I don't agree with bin Laden or his methods, but that's not in this letter. In the first section of the letter, "Why are we fighting and opposing you?", he describes atrocities committed by the United States and its allies. I think that part is what people reference as "astute points." You don't have to love a person to understand or consider their ideas. Ted Kaczynski is a good example of an American intellectual with many philosophically worthy ideas, even if you find his methods horrific.
  - thomassmith65 13d ago
    The points in my comment are in the letter, albeit in doublespeak (eg: "You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.") I omitted the reasonable points from Bin Laden's letter to focus on those that show what a wingnut he was.
    - text0404 13d ago
      People who resort to violence against civilians are largely wingnuts. I'm saying that most people who seriously consider his ideas are engaging with his geopolitical analyses, not his religious fanaticism.
    - aziaziazi 12d ago
      You exemple supports Bin Laden's sanity, isn't ? It's a pertinent idea that is already discussed in our western society : the usage of woman corpse to produce sexual arousal may not be aligned with a better condition for the others women. Whether you agree or not doesn't matter, neither if the proposition has been debunked.
  - karmakurtisaani 13d ago
    > Ted Kaczynski is a good example of an American intellectual with many philosophically worthy ideas I read a bit of his manifesto once. You have to be very generously looking for the worthy ideas.
Dig1t 13d ago
ctrl-f search for "Israel" Yeah there's a strong theme in this letter.
deleted 12d ago
[deleted]

25 points by kome 13d ago

mjd 13d ago

I guess this was written in the early 2000s, while OBL was hiding in Afghanistan?

flobosg 13d ago
(2002) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_American_People https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_American_People

eclips0 13d ago

[dead]

Georgelemental 13d ago

TLD checks out

jamesdvance 13d ago

[flagged]

krapp 13d ago
[flagged]
- thomassmith65 13d ago
  I would normally also roll my eyes at "They hate us for our freedoms", but a couple passages of this letter reasonably could be paraphrased as "We hate you for your freedoms". The paragraph beginning with "the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind" is a good example.
  - krapp 13d ago
    Apart from the references to Allah, that paragraph and the ones that follow are practically indistinguishable from the beliefs of many evangelical and conservative Christians, that America is an evil and secular empire corrupted by sin and vice that has turned away from God and His holy book. It just disagrees about which holy book. And that aside, many of the criticisms of the US made there are valid. The United States is a deeply hypocritical culture, presenting itself to the world as a paragon of Christian virtue while being rife with racism, misogyny and failing to actually uphold Christian values (apart from some uniquely American strain of "Christianity" that considers capitalism a virtue but empathy a sin.) The US is a violent hegemonic empire that doesn't respect international law while claiming to be the world's moral leaders. The US has undermined democracies around the world while claiming to be "leaders of the free world." The US does do vast ecological damage to the world in the name of capitalism. Granted, Bin Laden was a millionaire Saudi who funded mass murder so he was talking out of his ass on a lot of things (I wonder if the Koran has an equivalent to "take the plank out of your own eye before you complain about the speck in another's eye",) but he wasn't entirely wrong about the US. I wouldn't say the US is "the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind" but it probably would be in the top ten.
    - xorcist 12d ago
      Similarities between extremely conservative Christianism and extremely conservative Islamism? I am shocked! Seriously, has anyone ever argued that evangelicals and islamists would disagree about conservative ideas such as the role of sexuality or feminism in society? That sounds like a straw man among straw men.
      - krapp 12d ago
        Did you have a salient point to make or was this just some weird reflex on your part?

madspindel 13d ago

> It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. 27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

smusamashah 13d ago
First message looks more reasonable to me and think that second option is not sustainable. But being a Muslim I am biased towards what I am taught.
aziaziazi 13d ago
One may note that the idea of violent resistance to oppression is deeply present in USA too : Right of Revolution and Second Amendment. It seems you are trying to show the peacefulness of the Christian Bible vs the Quran, but cherry-picking creates a selection bias. If one wants to find verses justifying violence, the New Testament has them too (let alone the old one) > Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." > Revelation 19:15: "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron..."
- madspindel 13d ago
  > If one wants to find verses justifying violence, the New Testament has them too You are saying verses that do justifying violence but the ones you provided are just having the word 'sword' in them. Are you really saying that they tell me as a Christian to do violence?
  - aziaziazi 12d ago
    I'm basically saying cherry-picking creates a selection bias, which invalidated the point trying to be made. However that's a powerful technique to strengthen the idea of those already convinced. Regarding the verse I'm not sure if they imply you should do the same at home, however it's a possible interpretation.

thomassmith65 13d ago

[flagged]

text0404 13d ago
I don't agree with bin Laden or his methods, but that's not in this letter. In the first section of the letter, "Why are we fighting and opposing you?", he describes atrocities committed by the United States and its allies. I think that part is what people reference as "astute points." You don't have to love a person to understand or consider their ideas. Ted Kaczynski is a good example of an American intellectual with many philosophically worthy ideas, even if you find his methods horrific.
- thomassmith65 13d ago
  The points in my comment are in the letter, albeit in doublespeak (eg: "You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.") I omitted the reasonable points from Bin Laden's letter to focus on those that show what a wingnut he was.
  - text0404 13d ago
    People who resort to violence against civilians are largely wingnuts. I'm saying that most people who seriously consider his ideas are engaging with his geopolitical analyses, not his religious fanaticism.
  - aziaziazi 12d ago
    You exemple supports Bin Laden's sanity, isn't ? It's a pertinent idea that is already discussed in our western society : the usage of woman corpse to produce sexual arousal may not be aligned with a better condition for the others women. Whether you agree or not doesn't matter, neither if the proposition has been debunked.
- karmakurtisaani 13d ago
  > Ted Kaczynski is a good example of an American intellectual with many philosophically worthy ideas I read a bit of his manifesto once. You have to be very generously looking for the worthy ideas.

Dig1t 13d ago

ctrl-f search for "Israel" Yeah there's a strong theme in this letter.

deleted 12d ago

[deleted]