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The US has a really good freight train network. Yet there's a good chance the products you discussed didn't use the much more efficient train for the long dis

The US has a really good freight train network. Yet there's a good chance the products you discussed didn't use the much more efficient train for the long distance portion of their transit.

deleted 12d ago
[deleted]
gryfft 12d ago
If it's more efficient, is that not an arbitrage opportunity?
- bryanlarsen 12d ago
  - it's less convenient. If the cost difference is small because trucking is cheap people will pay more for convenience. - the cost difference is smaller than it should be. Trucking is highly subsidized, since diesel taxes don't come anywhere close to paying for the roads. OTOH railroads have to maintain their own infrastructure.
  - andrew_lettuce 12d ago
    ... Usually on the best land they were gifted for building the railway line on the first place, so heavily subsidized as well
    - bryanlarsen 12d ago
      They were gifted the land when the land was close to worthless because the transport costs for western products were higher than their value. The train is what made western land valuable. That land had value before the train came through was almost pure speculation -- people bought and settled land assuming that it would have value once a train arrived. It was a real subsidy, but it was small and it was > 100 years ago. OTOH, the land the freeways and roads were built on already had significant value before it was expropriated for road construction and wasn't paid for with diesel tax revenue, so it's yet another subsidy for truck traffic.
- Zambyte 12d ago
  It's efficient in terms of energy, but slow after decades of neglect. People pay for fast.
- Mawr 12d ago
  Ah yes, the "free market" fallacy. Watch this: - My trucks require roads and do more damage to roads than trains do to rail tracks? No problem, roads are paid for by the taxpayer, while the rail companies have to pay to build and maintain their tracks. - My trucks produce harmful emissions and particulates that trains don't? No problem, I don't pay for any of that. - My trucks kill people in accidents? Again, no problem, not paying for any of that. Yay, we've successfully optimized out any inefficiencies of trucks by externalizing literally all that's possible to externalize. Isn't the free market great?
seanmcdirmid 12d ago
It has a good rail freight system but it’s running at capacity. Trucks are still needed for connections.
- bryanlarsen 12d ago
  This is where the road subsidy becomes much more apparent. We use appropriation and tax dollars to expand the road network, but the railroads generally don't have access to either. So they're not expanding other than by running longer and longer trains. As for connections, electric trucks would work great for that.
  - seanmcdirmid 12d ago
    > We use appropriation and tax dollars to expand the road network, but the railroads generally don't have access to either. The federal government leases tracks using Amtrack money (among other public agencies). They get low interest rate loans as well. Definitely nothing near Chinese level of subsidies.

The US has a really good freight train network. Yet there's a good chance the products you discussed didn't use the much more efficient train for the long distance portion of their transit.

deleted 12d ago

[deleted]

gryfft 12d ago

If it's more efficient, is that not an arbitrage opportunity?

bryanlarsen 12d ago
- it's less convenient. If the cost difference is small because trucking is cheap people will pay more for convenience. - the cost difference is smaller than it should be. Trucking is highly subsidized, since diesel taxes don't come anywhere close to paying for the roads. OTOH railroads have to maintain their own infrastructure.
- andrew_lettuce 12d ago
  ... Usually on the best land they were gifted for building the railway line on the first place, so heavily subsidized as well
  - bryanlarsen 12d ago
    They were gifted the land when the land was close to worthless because the transport costs for western products were higher than their value. The train is what made western land valuable. That land had value before the train came through was almost pure speculation -- people bought and settled land assuming that it would have value once a train arrived. It was a real subsidy, but it was small and it was > 100 years ago. OTOH, the land the freeways and roads were built on already had significant value before it was expropriated for road construction and wasn't paid for with diesel tax revenue, so it's yet another subsidy for truck traffic.
Zambyte 12d ago
It's efficient in terms of energy, but slow after decades of neglect. People pay for fast.
Mawr 12d ago
Ah yes, the "free market" fallacy. Watch this: - My trucks require roads and do more damage to roads than trains do to rail tracks? No problem, roads are paid for by the taxpayer, while the rail companies have to pay to build and maintain their tracks. - My trucks produce harmful emissions and particulates that trains don't? No problem, I don't pay for any of that. - My trucks kill people in accidents? Again, no problem, not paying for any of that. Yay, we've successfully optimized out any inefficiencies of trucks by externalizing literally all that's possible to externalize. Isn't the free market great?

seanmcdirmid 12d ago

It has a good rail freight system but it’s running at capacity. Trucks are still needed for connections.

bryanlarsen 12d ago
This is where the road subsidy becomes much more apparent. We use appropriation and tax dollars to expand the road network, but the railroads generally don't have access to either. So they're not expanding other than by running longer and longer trains. As for connections, electric trucks would work great for that.
- seanmcdirmid 12d ago
  > We use appropriation and tax dollars to expand the road network, but the railroads generally don't have access to either. The federal government leases tracks using Amtrack money (among other public agencies). They get low interest rate loans as well. Definitely nothing near Chinese level of subsidies.