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> What I don't understand is why Sony is the one being targeted for this when this has been the case with any digital purchase for 20 years? Examples: literall

> What I don't understand is why Sony is the one being targeted for this when this has been the case with any digital purchase for 20 years? Examples: literally two days ago Sony permanently removed access to over 500 movies for people who had "purchased" them, and only a couple months ago Sony announced their plan to permanently shutter physical media production for Playstation. I agree with you that it's a systemic issue but it also doesn't surprise me that Sony is seen as the lead boogeyman. I think if you asked the average gamer what their opinion of Valve's business practices was vs. Sony you'd get a very different answer even if the legalese in the TOS is similar.

nerdjon 13d ago
I maybe should have phrased that better since I do understand their announcement around disks and removing the movies is a reason why they are the current target. I just find it hypocritical, people keep saying they are going to move to xbox or pc next gen and its like. Their policy is exactly the same. You have the same risk and not really ownership. And I am not defending Sony, they have a long history of getting cocky with their consoles and pulling some shit. But in this particular case they are following the trend that we allowed by going all digital on PC and buying digital games on consoles. Sony isnt going to be the one that changes this, the only way to expect change would be targeting all of them including Valve. But everyone, like this article, just seems to gloss right over that and seem to imply its only Sony that is the problem here.
- nemomarx 13d ago
  Nintendo still has pretty good physical. Move to them if you can imo
  - greenowl 13d ago
    and much better franchise
- antiframe 13d ago
  > You have the same risk and not really ownership. You don't, though. When I download a game on Steam or GOG, I have the files on my PC. I can back them up. I can modify them. Yes, live service games still have an online component I don't control, but I do still control the files on my computer. I don't on a console. Actually, I don't own any consoles for reasons of software freedom but I hear they are much more difficult to do things like back up your data, etc.
  - dcow 13d ago
    Yes, you do. When you play a digital game on Playstation you also download the files... It may be harder like you say but the law doesn't really see it any differently PC vs Console if you want to archive/backup your digital game media.
    - PenguinCoder 13d ago
      How do you backup game files from a console, to an external drive/location that you own; and ensure the validity of that backup will still be usable on the console later?
      - dcow 13d ago
        By inserting storage media into the removable/external media port and copying or moving the files.
    - TuxSH 13d ago
      On consoles in general, backing up digital media (if even possible) requires full-system exploits, thus bypassing DRM, and decrypting them also requires breaking DRM
      - dcow 13d ago
        Woah, we're not talking about cracking your games. I think every console from at least the last two generations has supported copying game files to external/removable media.
- applfanboysbgon 13d ago
  > Their policy is exactly the same. It's not, though. Their ToS is the same. They reserve to right to deny you ownership of your games. Only Sony has been stupid enough to actually do it. Every ToS in the world is designed to screw the signee over as much as it possibly can, so you'd need to go live in the woods if you wanted to escape it, but there is a tangible difference between how much companies actually abuse the provisions in their ToS. I don't know how you can say "Microsoft reserves the legal right to drill a hole in my skull" and "Sony is actively drilling a hole in my skull" are `exactly the same`.
  - nerdjon 13d ago
    So its fine that they force you to agree to something when you paid for it but its not fine when they do the thing you agreed too? Instead of actually trying to fix the issue we just hope that Valve never has to do the thing they are legally allowed to do because we agreed they could. I honestly don't care who has done what, I don't care what company is supposedly better than another company. Overnight Valve, Microsoft, whoever could just as easily remove access to a bunch of digital purchases. How about instead we just don't excuse any of the companies?
    - dataflow 13d ago
      > So its fine that they force you to agree to something when you paid for it but its not fine when they do the thing you agreed too? Two things can be both "not fine" but one can still be worse than the other.
      - nerdjon 13d ago
        Of course, I am not arguing otherwise. But if your core problem is not the removal of content but what Sony is arguing right now. You should have just as much of an issue with Valve as you do Sony since you are signing up for the same legal risk. Just because one has done it and the other hasn't is a technicality to me since that could change overnight. The point that I am trying to make here is that it is insane to me that all of this is focused on Sony. And frankly I don't have a good solution here, but just arguing that one TOS is better than another because one company hasn't done the thing yet but could is not a good argument. How many times have we seen management change, companies being bought, whatever and suddenly something really bad happens. I am just getting really frustrated by Sony this, Sony that. Boycot sony, etc when if all we do is move to another platform with the same policies do we really expect anything to change?
bsimpson 13d ago
It's incoherent. They're also forcing Stage Tour to include discs with their guitar bundles, even though many PS5s can't play discs.
RajT88 13d ago
Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo and more bear the blame here for this and more. RIP Lik Sang.
- TheAmazingRace 13d ago
  Lik Sang was awesome back in the day for procuring accessories like classic XBOX controller to USB adapters that weren't dodgy duct tape jobs. Hard to believe they were forced out of business by Sony two decades ago.
  - RajT88 13d ago
    They had all kinds of weird stuff which the big makers didn't want to exist - adapters to use Xbox controllers on Playstation and every permutation you could think of. All the big console manufacturers sued them. Said it was about modchips (and maybe it really was). Sony bore the most guilt. The gaming industry is a little less wonderful these past 20 years.
    - TheAmazingRace 13d ago
      Indeed. I find myself going back to older games anymore. Aside from maybe looking forward to GTA 6, I can't say I'm terribly interested in many modern titles. It's becoming more soulless.

nerdjon 13d ago

I maybe should have phrased that better since I do understand their announcement around disks and removing the movies is a reason why they are the current target. I just find it hypocritical, people keep saying they are going to move to xbox or pc next gen and its like. Their policy is exactly the same. You have the same risk and not really ownership. And I am not defending Sony, they have a long history of getting cocky with their consoles and pulling some shit. But in this particular case they are following the trend that we allowed by going all digital on PC and buying digital games on consoles. Sony isnt going to be the one that changes this, the only way to expect change would be targeting all of them including Valve. But everyone, like this article, just seems to gloss right over that and seem to imply its only Sony that is the problem here.

nemomarx 13d ago
Nintendo still has pretty good physical. Move to them if you can imo
- greenowl 13d ago
  and much better franchise
antiframe 13d ago
> You have the same risk and not really ownership. You don't, though. When I download a game on Steam or GOG, I have the files on my PC. I can back them up. I can modify them. Yes, live service games still have an online component I don't control, but I do still control the files on my computer. I don't on a console. Actually, I don't own any consoles for reasons of software freedom but I hear they are much more difficult to do things like back up your data, etc.
- dcow 13d ago
  Yes, you do. When you play a digital game on Playstation you also download the files... It may be harder like you say but the law doesn't really see it any differently PC vs Console if you want to archive/backup your digital game media.
  - PenguinCoder 13d ago
    How do you backup game files from a console, to an external drive/location that you own; and ensure the validity of that backup will still be usable on the console later?
    - dcow 13d ago
      By inserting storage media into the removable/external media port and copying or moving the files.
  - TuxSH 13d ago
    On consoles in general, backing up digital media (if even possible) requires full-system exploits, thus bypassing DRM, and decrypting them also requires breaking DRM
    - dcow 13d ago
      Woah, we're not talking about cracking your games. I think every console from at least the last two generations has supported copying game files to external/removable media.
applfanboysbgon 13d ago
> Their policy is exactly the same. It's not, though. Their ToS is the same. They reserve to right to deny you ownership of your games. Only Sony has been stupid enough to actually do it. Every ToS in the world is designed to screw the signee over as much as it possibly can, so you'd need to go live in the woods if you wanted to escape it, but there is a tangible difference between how much companies actually abuse the provisions in their ToS. I don't know how you can say "Microsoft reserves the legal right to drill a hole in my skull" and "Sony is actively drilling a hole in my skull" are `exactly the same`.
- nerdjon 13d ago
  So its fine that they force you to agree to something when you paid for it but its not fine when they do the thing you agreed too? Instead of actually trying to fix the issue we just hope that Valve never has to do the thing they are legally allowed to do because we agreed they could. I honestly don't care who has done what, I don't care what company is supposedly better than another company. Overnight Valve, Microsoft, whoever could just as easily remove access to a bunch of digital purchases. How about instead we just don't excuse any of the companies?
  - dataflow 13d ago
    > So its fine that they force you to agree to something when you paid for it but its not fine when they do the thing you agreed too? Two things can be both "not fine" but one can still be worse than the other.
    - nerdjon 13d ago
      Of course, I am not arguing otherwise. But if your core problem is not the removal of content but what Sony is arguing right now. You should have just as much of an issue with Valve as you do Sony since you are signing up for the same legal risk. Just because one has done it and the other hasn't is a technicality to me since that could change overnight. The point that I am trying to make here is that it is insane to me that all of this is focused on Sony. And frankly I don't have a good solution here, but just arguing that one TOS is better than another because one company hasn't done the thing yet but could is not a good argument. How many times have we seen management change, companies being bought, whatever and suddenly something really bad happens. I am just getting really frustrated by Sony this, Sony that. Boycot sony, etc when if all we do is move to another platform with the same policies do we really expect anything to change?

bsimpson 13d ago

It's incoherent. They're also forcing Stage Tour to include discs with their guitar bundles, even though many PS5s can't play discs.

RajT88 13d ago

Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo and more bear the blame here for this and more. RIP Lik Sang.

TheAmazingRace 13d ago
Lik Sang was awesome back in the day for procuring accessories like classic XBOX controller to USB adapters that weren't dodgy duct tape jobs. Hard to believe they were forced out of business by Sony two decades ago.
- RajT88 13d ago
  They had all kinds of weird stuff which the big makers didn't want to exist - adapters to use Xbox controllers on Playstation and every permutation you could think of. All the big console manufacturers sued them. Said it was about modchips (and maybe it really was). Sony bore the most guilt. The gaming industry is a little less wonderful these past 20 years.
  - TheAmazingRace 13d ago
    Indeed. I find myself going back to older games anymore. Aside from maybe looking forward to GTA 6, I can't say I'm terribly interested in many modern titles. It's becoming more soulless.