6 ms·

You may be living in a bubble. There are tons of developers still coding by hand, and many industries that don't trust machine generated code in general.

HDBaseT 17d ago
It does raise the question, what percentage of programmers are predominantly writing code by hand? Is it higher than 50%?
tty456 17d ago
Do they also not trust their code review processes?
- applfanboysbgon 17d ago
  Have you considered that they do trust their code review processes, and that they don't trust the generated code because it doesn't pass their process?
  - Supermancho 17d ago
    > they don't trust the generated code because it doesn't pass their process That's not a credible scenario. Developers can either make changes by hand, or by asking an LLM, which is the common process when there is a downstream failure. Humans dont metaphorically throw their hands up and say "well the tool doesn't meet our expectations at every scale so we're not going to use it". Granted, most developers scale back how much they rely on it based on experience (good and bad).
    - skydhash 17d ago
      That's very much a credible scenario. I think I use code from SO in a single digit of occasions. But I use it a lot more for giving me insight like a keyword for doing a proper web search. Or the name of a flag for a cli command, or the general shape of an algorithm or what to check in a troubleshooting session. I won't generalize, but it's very rare for me to need code as most of my diffs are either boilerplate (generated with a tool or copied from docs or samples) or core logic that is mostly the translation of some design that I've already spent hours or days on. My core issue has always been incomplete specs from Product or incomplete docs for some tool/sdk/library (alleviated by having access to the source code). Generated code is just not that useful, especially when designing the core architecture of a new project. And later it's not that useful either as the specs (why and how) is more valuable than any code (what).
semiquaver 17d ago
> many industries that don't trust machine generated code in general. Which ones? Why wouldn’t careful human code review and extensive test coverage suffice? I work in one of the most conservative and highly regulated industries in the country. My company and every single one of my peer companies I have knowledge of has transitioned to almost exclusively 100% LLM-generated code (with plenty of human review). I don’t live on a coast and I have a large and broad social network. I don’t know anyone who still mostly codes by hand except the small amount needed to preserve some aspect of their skills. I’m sorry to say that if I did I’d consider them foolish. Even a very restrictive workflow where you used an LLM to specify granular edits you intend to make is vastly faster than doing it by hand. And the level of test coverage and depth you can achieve now is simply life-changing. It’s much more likely that you are not a professional, or you are the one in a bubble.
- solid_fuel 17d ago
  > Which ones? Any that value correctness over speed. Banking, safety critical embedded work, aerospace work, etc. > Why wouldn’t careful human code review and extensive test coverage suffice? Because anyone who has been in the industry for a while knows that code review is not a substitute for intentionality and understanding when writing the code. To properly validate a change you must fully understand the intention behind it and the design at play, and then check the changes made against the system design. That is best done by a human subject matter expert (this is the role which software developers have traditionally filled, for anyone new to the industry). > I work in one of the most conservative and highly regulated industries in the country. My company and every single one of my peer companies I have knowledge of has transitioned to almost exclusively 100% LLM-generated code (with plenty of human review). That's called "being in a bubble". > I don’t live on a coast and I have a large and broad social network. I don’t know anyone who still mostly codes by hand except the small amount needed to preserve some aspect of their skills. I’m sorry to say that if I did I’d consider them foolish. And I think it's foolish to let your coding and critical thinking skills atrophy like this, but you do you. > It’s much more likely that you are not a professional, or you are the one in a bubble. Not even worth a reply.
  - 17d ago
sroerick 16d ago
I don't know people or talk to people so I'm happy to hear otherwise. Which industries? I definitely look for libraries which are handcoded and I consider them to generally be of a much higher quality, but it increasingly seems like high performance / critical infra is going to move to formal proofs rather than hand coding

HDBaseT 17d ago

It does raise the question, what percentage of programmers are predominantly writing code by hand? Is it higher than 50%?

tty456 17d ago

Do they also not trust their code review processes?

applfanboysbgon 17d ago
Have you considered that they do trust their code review processes, and that they don't trust the generated code because it doesn't pass their process?
- Supermancho 17d ago
  > they don't trust the generated code because it doesn't pass their process That's not a credible scenario. Developers can either make changes by hand, or by asking an LLM, which is the common process when there is a downstream failure. Humans dont metaphorically throw their hands up and say "well the tool doesn't meet our expectations at every scale so we're not going to use it". Granted, most developers scale back how much they rely on it based on experience (good and bad).
  - skydhash 17d ago
    That's very much a credible scenario. I think I use code from SO in a single digit of occasions. But I use it a lot more for giving me insight like a keyword for doing a proper web search. Or the name of a flag for a cli command, or the general shape of an algorithm or what to check in a troubleshooting session. I won't generalize, but it's very rare for me to need code as most of my diffs are either boilerplate (generated with a tool or copied from docs or samples) or core logic that is mostly the translation of some design that I've already spent hours or days on. My core issue has always been incomplete specs from Product or incomplete docs for some tool/sdk/library (alleviated by having access to the source code). Generated code is just not that useful, especially when designing the core architecture of a new project. And later it's not that useful either as the specs (why and how) is more valuable than any code (what).

semiquaver 17d ago

> many industries that don't trust machine generated code in general. Which ones? Why wouldn’t careful human code review and extensive test coverage suffice? I work in one of the most conservative and highly regulated industries in the country. My company and every single one of my peer companies I have knowledge of has transitioned to almost exclusively 100% LLM-generated code (with plenty of human review). I don’t live on a coast and I have a large and broad social network. I don’t know anyone who still mostly codes by hand except the small amount needed to preserve some aspect of their skills. I’m sorry to say that if I did I’d consider them foolish. Even a very restrictive workflow where you used an LLM to specify granular edits you intend to make is vastly faster than doing it by hand. And the level of test coverage and depth you can achieve now is simply life-changing. It’s much more likely that you are not a professional, or you are the one in a bubble.

solid_fuel 17d ago
> Which ones? Any that value correctness over speed. Banking, safety critical embedded work, aerospace work, etc. > Why wouldn’t careful human code review and extensive test coverage suffice? Because anyone who has been in the industry for a while knows that code review is not a substitute for intentionality and understanding when writing the code. To properly validate a change you must fully understand the intention behind it and the design at play, and then check the changes made against the system design. That is best done by a human subject matter expert (this is the role which software developers have traditionally filled, for anyone new to the industry). > I work in one of the most conservative and highly regulated industries in the country. My company and every single one of my peer companies I have knowledge of has transitioned to almost exclusively 100% LLM-generated code (with plenty of human review). That's called "being in a bubble". > I don’t live on a coast and I have a large and broad social network. I don’t know anyone who still mostly codes by hand except the small amount needed to preserve some aspect of their skills. I’m sorry to say that if I did I’d consider them foolish. And I think it's foolish to let your coding and critical thinking skills atrophy like this, but you do you. > It’s much more likely that you are not a professional, or you are the one in a bubble. Not even worth a reply.
- 17d ago

sroerick 16d ago

I don't know people or talk to people so I'm happy to hear otherwise. Which industries? I definitely look for libraries which are handcoded and I consider them to generally be of a much higher quality, but it increasingly seems like high performance / critical infra is going to move to formal proofs rather than hand coding