5 ms·

Serious question: why do people use non-OS browsers? Most devs I know are on Mac. Why not just use Safari? Works in most cases, helps you catch issues earlier

by cuuupid 18d ago

Serious question: why do people use non-OS browsers? Most devs I know are on Mac. Why not just use Safari? Works in most cases, helps you catch issues earlier on, looks beautiful and is super customizable, still supports UBlock, has vertical tabs, syncs profiles to your focus, is way more memory efficient, etc. I've daily driven Safari for ~3y after Arc got sunset and the only site that gives me issues is Hulu (but not Disney+ weirdly). Similarly drive Edge on Windows, I can't think why I'd ever reach for Chrome.

infecto 18d ago
My number one reason. Safari won’t let me customize the search engine. If I had that I would use safari all day long.
- jooize 18d ago
  It's such a silly limitation. There are extensions, but they're all imperfect hacks.
  - infecto 18d ago
    They are annoying hacks too because the common one the search still goes to the chosen default and then the extension hijacks and redirects.
- hughw 18d ago
  I see 5 choices for search engine in Settings? Are you saying you want one not listed?
  - infecto 18d ago
    Yes. The obvious choice for HN is not listed in it. It’s a silly limitation anyway.
  - abawany 18d ago
    yes, for example they have Ecosia but not Qwant (they are said to share their index but for my searches, I often flip over to Qwant when Ecosia results for the same query are not adequate.) I understand why Safari went with a search engine whitelist but I wish there was a way to make exceptions.
- bonestamp2 18d ago
  No this one specifically for me, but same idea. I want to use safari, especially for battery life, but there are too many behaviors about Safari that I can't change.
lpghatguy 18d ago
If you use more than one operating system, you can't use the operating system browser if you want sync or the same experience. For example, I use a Windows desktop and a MacBook.
shrinks99 18d ago
Firefox's extension support is far superior to Safari's, cross-platform support, and I really don't want to use Edge for the same reasons I don't want to use Chrome.
- cuuupid 18d ago
  Is the limiting factor for extensions APIs or just porting it to WebKit?
- dzonga 18d ago
  Firefox sucks on memory though on MacOS. I use Firefox when I want disposable tabs / containers. then majority of stuff - Safari. private window work stuff set to chrome - since I can resume the session unlike safari.
nemomarx 18d ago
Is edge Different here? It's also dropping ubo anyway. I prefer Firefox on mobile for supporting ublock personally and I don't see why I would use a different browser on my desktop.
hparadiz 18d ago
Because for enterprise with Google login you literally can't login with anything else except official Chrome.
- cuuupid 18d ago
  This might be IT department enforced, we're a FedRAMP High shop with Google IdP and roll Safari I've worked at some places where they restrict to Chrome because they have a corporate extension
  - hparadiz 18d ago
    Yes
- LtWorf 18d ago
  Just change the user agent.
  - hparadiz 18d ago
    [dead]
greenavocado 18d ago
Safari was always the Internet Explorer 6 of the Internet. Archaic, quirky, way behind on useful new APIs. Perhaps things have changed recently.
mlnj 18d ago
I use multiple OSes. I do not want a different list of extensions and preferences on each machine I am on. Firefox makes it simple and uniform.
embedding-shape 18d ago
You mean OS as in "operating system", not "open source", which made me question how you'd suggest Safari and Edge before I realized what was going on. I don't know why using the default browser a OS comes with or not would be better? Who cares? All that matters for me is what features it has and that performance isn't horrible, and if I cannot have vertical tree-style tabs in it and hide the tab-bar, then I personally have no use for it. So stuck with Firefox I am, and been for decades. Besides, if my OS is Arch Linux, what browser is my "OS-browser" anyway?
- jooize 18d ago
  That's usually said as Open Source Software (OSS) or longer acronyms that sound like dental care.
  - latexr 18d ago
    > or longer acronyms that sound like dental care. What acronym are you thinking of?
    - demurgos 18d ago
      They're referencing "FLOSS": Free/Libre and Open Source Software [0] [0]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/floss-and-foss.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/floss-and-foss.en.html
  - embedding-shape 18d ago
    FLOSS, FOSS, OSS, OS, dear child has many names :)
    - jasonmp85 18d ago
      [dead]
- tomalbrc 18d ago
  > I don't know why using the default browser a OS comes with or not would be better? Are being ignorant on purpose now? Apple's Safari has integration with Apple's Password app which firefox does not. Edge automatically connects with your Microsoft account. Both browsers sync tabs, bookmarks and so on across your Microsoft/Apple account connected devices. For a lot of 'average' users this is already extremely convenient. On top of that, Safari is still the most 'energy efficient' browser you could use on macOS.
Waterluvian 18d ago
One data point: I’ve been building Web GIS applications for the past 15ish years and Firefox has one and off been a real pain in the neck, suffering from canvas API quirks and performance issues. I think the current state at work is that Firefox is palpably slower than Chrome and I need to find time to go figure out why. Another point: I’m not sure if Safari’s dev tools are worse but I feel friction any time I have to use them. It’s probably partly just that I don’t want to learn the quirks of both sets. Firefox’s is much closer to Chrome’s. I bet they’re both inspired by Firebug.
osener 18d ago
It is not without its fair share of faults, but I stay on Firefox because of multi account containers
k_roy 18d ago
Okay, so first. Using Mac is a no-go. For me, they became insufferably power-user hostile over the years. Second, God the safari rendering was so horrible for so many years. As a web developer, you have to target your greatest demographic, and Safari just broke everything more often than not. Finally, even using Mac on enterprise, Chrome use is required because of the profile controls that can be exerted. And items #1/2 don’t help
tpm 18d ago
I'm a dev and use windows (sadly have to), android and linux, and would never use edge, because why? when it randomly opens because of a wrong file association or whatnot, I only see a bucket of ms nags and dark patterns. It's disgusting. Firefox allows me to share stuff across devices, block anything I want to and does not get in my way.
least 18d ago
The UBO on Safari has the same issue as chrome except that it has been that way for several years longer. They brought back the lite form of UBO only recently as, presumably, the developer saw the writing on the wall and mv3 and Safari carry the same limitations. I think safari is largely fine but there are a lot of web APIs that it doesn’t support, rightly or not. A lot of devices are configurable through serial connections using the Web Serial APO thats only available in chromium browsers. As a primary browser it really comes down to ergonomics. Things on top of the engine that make someone prefer one browser over the other.
barbazoo 18d ago
I'm still using Arc, I wonder when I'll lose UBO support. That'll be the day I switch back to Firefox.
- chippiewill 18d ago
  Arc turned off MV3/UBO a few weeks ago for me, similar time to when all the other Chromium based browsers did. I'm thinking of switching to Zen which is a Firefox based clone of Arc
chriswarbo 18d ago
I've used Linux exclusively for over 20 years. What is its "OS browser"?
- wmichelin 18d ago
  Probably FF lol
- nosioptar 18d ago
  Lynx?
  - FergusArgyll 18d ago
    eww? :r !curl?
- jannes 18d ago
  Epiphany on Gnome - https://apps.gnome.org/Epiphany/ https://apps.gnome.org/Epiphany/ In all other cases Firefox, I'd assume.
  - chriswarbo 17d ago
    True, I was a very happy Epiphany user about 20 years ago. Konqueror is the KDE equivalent (which of course begat KHTML -> Webkit -> Blink)
wmichelin 18d ago
Safari is fantastic for me. Passwords app integration alone is a killer feature.
herpdyderp 18d ago
I use Safari for nearly everything and it's my favorite browser. It has some oddities, but I find just as many Chrome and Firefox bugs as I do Safari bugs. I use Firefox on everything else though.
rglover 18d ago
The inspector is a nightmare if you're doing web dev (imo; it always felt clunky). If they replaced that with a Chromium-style inspector, I'd probably jump over.
cyberax 18d ago
"Safari" and "beautiful" in the same sentence? It's not. It's barely functional, slower than Chrome, and always trails it in feature compatibility.
BeetleB 18d ago
> Serious question: why do people use non-OS browsers? Because Edge sucks, and FF is better than Safari.
latexr 18d ago
> Why not just use Safari? I use Safari, but don’t really like it. I don’t want to use Chrome or Chromium derivatives and Firefox doesn’t support AppleScript (that’s essential for me), so all that’s left is Safari. Or Orion, I guess, but it’s not good enough to offset Safari’s iCloud Private Relay. Things I dislike about Safari include not being able to setup alternative search bar engines other than the awful default choice; not being able to disable JavaScript by default and enable it selectively; not being able to have it auto-delete site data on close except for defined domains; iCloud tab sync is finicky and doesn’t always work. Some of those can be solved with extensions, but then the system to allow or deny extensions is atrocious: You can’t easily say “allow extensions everywhere except these domains”. You have to open each domain in tabs, then deny each domain individually in each extension. It’s also not kept in sync with iOS, where it’s even worse because you have to accept an extension on a domain before you get the option to deny it.
iknowstuff 18d ago
[dead]

by cuuupid 18d ago

infecto 18d ago

My number one reason. Safari won’t let me customize the search engine. If I had that I would use safari all day long.

jooize 18d ago
It's such a silly limitation. There are extensions, but they're all imperfect hacks.
- infecto 18d ago
  They are annoying hacks too because the common one the search still goes to the chosen default and then the extension hijacks and redirects.
hughw 18d ago
I see 5 choices for search engine in Settings? Are you saying you want one not listed?
- infecto 18d ago
  Yes. The obvious choice for HN is not listed in it. It’s a silly limitation anyway.
- abawany 18d ago
  yes, for example they have Ecosia but not Qwant (they are said to share their index but for my searches, I often flip over to Qwant when Ecosia results for the same query are not adequate.) I understand why Safari went with a search engine whitelist but I wish there was a way to make exceptions.
bonestamp2 18d ago
No this one specifically for me, but same idea. I want to use safari, especially for battery life, but there are too many behaviors about Safari that I can't change.

lpghatguy 18d ago

If you use more than one operating system, you can't use the operating system browser if you want sync or the same experience. For example, I use a Windows desktop and a MacBook.

shrinks99 18d ago

Firefox's extension support is far superior to Safari's, cross-platform support, and I really don't want to use Edge for the same reasons I don't want to use Chrome.

cuuupid 18d ago
Is the limiting factor for extensions APIs or just porting it to WebKit?
dzonga 18d ago
Firefox sucks on memory though on MacOS. I use Firefox when I want disposable tabs / containers. then majority of stuff - Safari. private window work stuff set to chrome - since I can resume the session unlike safari.

nemomarx 18d ago

Is edge Different here? It's also dropping ubo anyway. I prefer Firefox on mobile for supporting ublock personally and I don't see why I would use a different browser on my desktop.

hparadiz 18d ago

Because for enterprise with Google login you literally can't login with anything else except official Chrome.

cuuupid 18d ago
This might be IT department enforced, we're a FedRAMP High shop with Google IdP and roll Safari I've worked at some places where they restrict to Chrome because they have a corporate extension
- hparadiz 18d ago
  Yes
LtWorf 18d ago
Just change the user agent.
- hparadiz 18d ago
  [dead]

greenavocado 18d ago

Safari was always the Internet Explorer 6 of the Internet. Archaic, quirky, way behind on useful new APIs. Perhaps things have changed recently.

mlnj 18d ago

I use multiple OSes. I do not want a different list of extensions and preferences on each machine I am on. Firefox makes it simple and uniform.

embedding-shape 18d ago

You mean OS as in "operating system", not "open source", which made me question how you'd suggest Safari and Edge before I realized what was going on. I don't know why using the default browser a OS comes with or not would be better? Who cares? All that matters for me is what features it has and that performance isn't horrible, and if I cannot have vertical tree-style tabs in it and hide the tab-bar, then I personally have no use for it. So stuck with Firefox I am, and been for decades. Besides, if my OS is Arch Linux, what browser is my "OS-browser" anyway?

jooize 18d ago
That's usually said as Open Source Software (OSS) or longer acronyms that sound like dental care.
- latexr 18d ago
  > or longer acronyms that sound like dental care. What acronym are you thinking of?
  - demurgos 18d ago
    They're referencing "FLOSS": Free/Libre and Open Source Software [0] [0]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/floss-and-foss.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/floss-and-foss.en.html
- embedding-shape 18d ago
  FLOSS, FOSS, OSS, OS, dear child has many names :)
  - jasonmp85 18d ago
    [dead]
tomalbrc 18d ago
> I don't know why using the default browser a OS comes with or not would be better? Are being ignorant on purpose now? Apple's Safari has integration with Apple's Password app which firefox does not. Edge automatically connects with your Microsoft account. Both browsers sync tabs, bookmarks and so on across your Microsoft/Apple account connected devices. For a lot of 'average' users this is already extremely convenient. On top of that, Safari is still the most 'energy efficient' browser you could use on macOS.

Waterluvian 18d ago

One data point: I’ve been building Web GIS applications for the past 15ish years and Firefox has one and off been a real pain in the neck, suffering from canvas API quirks and performance issues. I think the current state at work is that Firefox is palpably slower than Chrome and I need to find time to go figure out why. Another point: I’m not sure if Safari’s dev tools are worse but I feel friction any time I have to use them. It’s probably partly just that I don’t want to learn the quirks of both sets. Firefox’s is much closer to Chrome’s. I bet they’re both inspired by Firebug.

osener 18d ago

It is not without its fair share of faults, but I stay on Firefox because of multi account containers

k_roy 18d ago

Okay, so first. Using Mac is a no-go. For me, they became insufferably power-user hostile over the years. Second, God the safari rendering was so horrible for so many years. As a web developer, you have to target your greatest demographic, and Safari just broke everything more often than not. Finally, even using Mac on enterprise, Chrome use is required because of the profile controls that can be exerted. And items #1/2 don’t help

tpm 18d ago

I'm a dev and use windows (sadly have to), android and linux, and would never use edge, because why? when it randomly opens because of a wrong file association or whatnot, I only see a bucket of ms nags and dark patterns. It's disgusting. Firefox allows me to share stuff across devices, block anything I want to and does not get in my way.

least 18d ago

The UBO on Safari has the same issue as chrome except that it has been that way for several years longer. They brought back the lite form of UBO only recently as, presumably, the developer saw the writing on the wall and mv3 and Safari carry the same limitations. I think safari is largely fine but there are a lot of web APIs that it doesn’t support, rightly or not. A lot of devices are configurable through serial connections using the Web Serial APO thats only available in chromium browsers. As a primary browser it really comes down to ergonomics. Things on top of the engine that make someone prefer one browser over the other.

barbazoo 18d ago

I'm still using Arc, I wonder when I'll lose UBO support. That'll be the day I switch back to Firefox.

chippiewill 18d ago
Arc turned off MV3/UBO a few weeks ago for me, similar time to when all the other Chromium based browsers did. I'm thinking of switching to Zen which is a Firefox based clone of Arc

chriswarbo 18d ago

I've used Linux exclusively for over 20 years. What is its "OS browser"?

wmichelin 18d ago
Probably FF lol
nosioptar 18d ago
Lynx?
- FergusArgyll 18d ago
  eww? :r !curl?
jannes 18d ago
Epiphany on Gnome - https://apps.gnome.org/Epiphany/ https://apps.gnome.org/Epiphany/ In all other cases Firefox, I'd assume.
- chriswarbo 17d ago
  True, I was a very happy Epiphany user about 20 years ago. Konqueror is the KDE equivalent (which of course begat KHTML -> Webkit -> Blink)

wmichelin 18d ago

Safari is fantastic for me. Passwords app integration alone is a killer feature.

herpdyderp 18d ago

I use Safari for nearly everything and it's my favorite browser. It has some oddities, but I find just as many Chrome and Firefox bugs as I do Safari bugs. I use Firefox on everything else though.

rglover 18d ago

The inspector is a nightmare if you're doing web dev (imo; it always felt clunky). If they replaced that with a Chromium-style inspector, I'd probably jump over.

cyberax 18d ago

"Safari" and "beautiful" in the same sentence? It's not. It's barely functional, slower than Chrome, and always trails it in feature compatibility.

BeetleB 18d ago

> Serious question: why do people use non-OS browsers? Because Edge sucks, and FF is better than Safari.

latexr 18d ago

> Why not just use Safari? I use Safari, but don’t really like it. I don’t want to use Chrome or Chromium derivatives and Firefox doesn’t support AppleScript (that’s essential for me), so all that’s left is Safari. Or Orion, I guess, but it’s not good enough to offset Safari’s iCloud Private Relay. Things I dislike about Safari include not being able to setup alternative search bar engines other than the awful default choice; not being able to disable JavaScript by default and enable it selectively; not being able to have it auto-delete site data on close except for defined domains; iCloud tab sync is finicky and doesn’t always work. Some of those can be solved with extensions, but then the system to allow or deny extensions is atrocious: You can’t easily say “allow extensions everywhere except these domains”. You have to open each domain in tabs, then deny each domain individually in each extension. It’s also not kept in sync with iOS, where it’s even worse because you have to accept an extension on a domain before you get the option to deny it.

iknowstuff 18d ago

[dead]