4 ms·

I thought the rules were clear and it depends on how the word is pronounced, with a vowel or consonant sound. I have only heard people say H T T P, as specific

by likis 19d ago

I thought the rules were clear and it depends on how the word is pronounced, with a vowel or consonant sound. I have only heard people say H T T P, as specific letters when pronouncing HTTP, and thus the a or an should be based on how one would pronounce the letter "H". And H would be pronounced as "aitch". Starts with an a -> vowel sound -> should be "an". But I'm a non native english speaker, so I'm happy to be proven wrong.

JoshTriplett 19d ago
Some UK speakers pronounce "H" as "haitch" (with a non-silent leading 'h'), not "aitch". Which leads to "a haitch tee ...". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H#Name
- amiga386 19d ago
  Specifically, upper-class Brits pronounce the "h". See this classic Monty Python sketch which makes fun of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnq96W9jtuw&t=66s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnq96W9jtuw&t=66s Praline: 'Ello. I would like to buy a fish license, please. Clerk: A what? Praline: A license for my pet fish, Eric. Clerk: How did you know my name was Eric? Praline: No, no, no, no. My _fish's_ name is Eric. Eric the fish. 'E's an 'alibut. Clerk: What? Praline (in upper-class accent): He is an halibut. There was a lot of discourse about the (then declining) aristocracy and their mannerisms, accents and so on, in the 1950s and 1960s. In particular, discussion of "U" (upper class) versus "non-U" English, highlighting the differences in language usage between classes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English The Pythons were highly attuned to this class distinction and wrote it into their sketches. Another good sketch is an upper-class family distinguishing "woody" and "tinny" sounds, but the whole sketch's premise is to laugh at the odd mannerisms of the upper-classes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3-51DhOzHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3-51DhOzHE
  - amiga386 19d ago
    Perhaps the most succinct explanation of British class difference is the famous Frost Report sketch featuring John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hhrwl https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hhrwl
  - lproven 19d ago
    > Specifically, upper-class Brits pronounce the "h". I think you have this slightly muddled. It's not that upper-class Brits pronounce more of the "h" sounds. The idea is that upper-class types go to private schools and they learn French, and so they know that lots of English words that have a leading "h" are French loanwords and thus the they are unaspirated in the original, i.e. the "h" is silent – it ought not to be said. "Hotel", "hospital", "honour", "homage", and so on - no leading "huh" sound. Which means that the word starts on a vowel sound, and in turn, that means it takes "an" in front not "a". But people who don't know French and don't know which words have a sort of silent H on the front and which don't try to hyper-correct – so they start inserting extra initial "huh" sounds on words beginning with some form of vowel. This is how old British TV comedies tried to parody policemen talking - they are often working class but in dealing with lawyers, judges, etc., they are aware of speaking to someone from a higher social class and so they try to speak more "proper" and insert loads of extra "h" sounds. "Hin my hopinion, your onner, the suspect was hup to something." Drop the "h" sounds where they _should_ be, and at the same time insert extra ones where they shouldn't be. I think this is what the Pythons were playing with. Now that Britain is a little bit less class-conscious – and foreign accents are heard a lot more often – it doesn't seem funny any more so it's gone away. That's a good thing overall, I reckon. (Wondering how long I should keep this up...)
    - bigfishrunning 18d ago
      > (Wondering how long I should keep this up...) Forever, I'm finding it very entertaining
      - 18d ago
- throaway25498 18d ago
  Not uncommon in Australia too. As a very ordinary General Australian speaker I use haitch (and therefore a, not an). I'm probably not 100% consistent in this. It's one of many words where Australian English permits two equally valid pronunciations (e.g. 'dance'). I do cringe when people insist on "an + h" where the h is in fact invariably pronounced, as in "an historic occasion". You only ever seem to hear this from Americans trying to sound educated, which makes me suspect it's affected, not organic. I doubt the person giving a speech on 'an historic occasion' would then go home and give his kid 'an history book'.
  - JoshTriplett 18d ago
    > I do cringe when people insist on "an + h" where the h is in fact invariably pronounced, as in "an historic occasion". Some people do in fact say "istoric", which seems largely like an affectation.
cyphar 18d ago
You're quite right that the rules are clear and native speakers get them correct almost all of the time (I've not seen one get it wrong while speaking but some people were taught it as a spelling rule at school and so tend to write it incorrectly), but the difference is that different speakers pronounce the leading "H" differently. In Australia we pronounce the H more like "heitch" while in the US people tend to pronounce it as "eytch" (IPA would probably more descriptive here, sorry!). In the UK it's a bit more of a mixed bag, as others have already elucidated. "Ambiguous" was probably a poor word choice, I meant to say that because both ways of writing are technically valid based on the accent of the author there is an element of freedom in the choice that tells you something about them.

by likis 19d ago

JoshTriplett 19d ago

Some UK speakers pronounce "H" as "haitch" (with a non-silent leading 'h'), not "aitch". Which leads to "a haitch tee ...". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H#Name

amiga386 19d ago
Specifically, upper-class Brits pronounce the "h". See this classic Monty Python sketch which makes fun of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnq96W9jtuw&t=66s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnq96W9jtuw&t=66s Praline: 'Ello. I would like to buy a fish license, please. Clerk: A what? Praline: A license for my pet fish, Eric. Clerk: How did you know my name was Eric? Praline: No, no, no, no. My _fish's_ name is Eric. Eric the fish. 'E's an 'alibut. Clerk: What? Praline (in upper-class accent): He is an halibut. There was a lot of discourse about the (then declining) aristocracy and their mannerisms, accents and so on, in the 1950s and 1960s. In particular, discussion of "U" (upper class) versus "non-U" English, highlighting the differences in language usage between classes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English The Pythons were highly attuned to this class distinction and wrote it into their sketches. Another good sketch is an upper-class family distinguishing "woody" and "tinny" sounds, but the whole sketch's premise is to laugh at the odd mannerisms of the upper-classes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3-51DhOzHE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3-51DhOzHE
- amiga386 19d ago
  Perhaps the most succinct explanation of British class difference is the famous Frost Report sketch featuring John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_sketch https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hhrwl https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hhrwl
- lproven 19d ago
  > Specifically, upper-class Brits pronounce the "h". I think you have this slightly muddled. It's not that upper-class Brits pronounce more of the "h" sounds. The idea is that upper-class types go to private schools and they learn French, and so they know that lots of English words that have a leading "h" are French loanwords and thus the they are unaspirated in the original, i.e. the "h" is silent – it ought not to be said. "Hotel", "hospital", "honour", "homage", and so on - no leading "huh" sound. Which means that the word starts on a vowel sound, and in turn, that means it takes "an" in front not "a". But people who don't know French and don't know which words have a sort of silent H on the front and which don't try to hyper-correct – so they start inserting extra initial "huh" sounds on words beginning with some form of vowel. This is how old British TV comedies tried to parody policemen talking - they are often working class but in dealing with lawyers, judges, etc., they are aware of speaking to someone from a higher social class and so they try to speak more "proper" and insert loads of extra "h" sounds. "Hin my hopinion, your onner, the suspect was hup to something." Drop the "h" sounds where they _should_ be, and at the same time insert extra ones where they shouldn't be. I think this is what the Pythons were playing with. Now that Britain is a little bit less class-conscious – and foreign accents are heard a lot more often – it doesn't seem funny any more so it's gone away. That's a good thing overall, I reckon. (Wondering how long I should keep this up...)
  - bigfishrunning 18d ago
    > (Wondering how long I should keep this up...) Forever, I'm finding it very entertaining
    - 18d ago
throaway25498 18d ago
Not uncommon in Australia too. As a very ordinary General Australian speaker I use haitch (and therefore a, not an). I'm probably not 100% consistent in this. It's one of many words where Australian English permits two equally valid pronunciations (e.g. 'dance'). I do cringe when people insist on "an + h" where the h is in fact invariably pronounced, as in "an historic occasion". You only ever seem to hear this from Americans trying to sound educated, which makes me suspect it's affected, not organic. I doubt the person giving a speech on 'an historic occasion' would then go home and give his kid 'an history book'.
- JoshTriplett 18d ago
  > I do cringe when people insist on "an + h" where the h is in fact invariably pronounced, as in "an historic occasion". Some people do in fact say "istoric", which seems largely like an affectation.

cyphar 18d ago

You're quite right that the rules are clear and native speakers get them correct almost all of the time (I've not seen one get it wrong while speaking but some people were taught it as a spelling rule at school and so tend to write it incorrectly), but the difference is that different speakers pronounce the leading "H" differently. In Australia we pronounce the H more like "heitch" while in the US people tend to pronounce it as "eytch" (IPA would probably more descriptive here, sorry!). In the UK it's a bit more of a mixed bag, as others have already elucidated. "Ambiguous" was probably a poor word choice, I meant to say that because both ways of writing are technically valid based on the accent of the author there is an element of freedom in the choice that tells you something about them.