5 ms·

And, of course, no thought is given to the implications this could have in conjunction with the next Orban. Europe is aligning against Russia as a threat, while

by random3 17d ago

And, of course, no thought is given to the implications this could have in conjunction with the next Orban. Europe is aligning against Russia as a threat, while at the same time shooting itself in the foot by disabling basic rights like privacy with absolutely no memory of how much more basic lack of privacy (enabled by Facebook) was leveraged with relatively simple tools (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook–Cambridge_Analytica_data_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook–Cambridge_Analytica_d...) to help Brexit happen (effectively breaking Europe apart). This quote from Apocalypto stuck with me "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within."

ronsor 17d ago
Europe has learned the lesson that extremists are bad, but it has not learned the lesson that the tools shouldn't exist.
- ExoticPearTree 17d ago
  There will always be extremists on both sides of the political spectrum. The problem is quite simple: people swing more to one side or another if their voices are not heard. The current boogeyman is the growth of the far-right in Europe. But that could have been prevented if the EU did not have an open-doors migration policy to start with. And to have listened to the people on other issues too.
  - BonerWiener 17d ago
    > But that could have been prevented if the EU did not have an open-doors migration policy to start with. And to have listened to the people on other issues too. I believe there are more nuances to this, then simply blaming it on immigration policies. There are a lot of variables in place for why far right movements are and have been on the rise in the EU. And I certainly believe the issues could've been handled better by each member state. Yes, immigration is a serious problem. Especially if member States doesn't increase budgets for handling said immigrants. After all, why does immigration even happen in the first place? Aren't we as a western society responsible for the destruction and destabiliztion of the eastern countries?
    - ronsor 17d ago
      I don't think Spain or Sweden are very responsible for most of the Middle Eastern woes. If anything, blame the US.
      - ExoticPearTree 17d ago
        They are to blame because they allow people to cross their borders illegally. And in Spain's case, they're looking at giving them citizenship. And then they complain about crime.
    - vladms 17d ago
      To be honest immigration happened forever because people look for a better place to live. The able, hard working and entrepreneurial ones bring a lot to the countries they immigrate to. So, I do not see immigration as "a problem". Additionally Europe's natality is not great, it needs people working. So many enterprises in Europe are happy with that. Why is immigration presented as a problem? Because it is easy, does not affect directly any potential voter (I mean, if you say "rich are to blame", around half of the voters will not vote you, if you say "the poor are to blame" the other half will not vote you, but immigrants? No problem they generally don't vote) and because Europe has a tradition to seeing itself "above others". So if there are problems and you see dark people around, must be there fault, no? I really think they are (many) people that think like that (and I also met a couple)...
      - trinsic2 17d ago
        Certain parts of the UK is using that exact same approach it seems like. They are gaslighting there own populace by bringing in immigrants to take over work that is being stalled by protests and the only people that are noticing are the people that are the activists.
      - PorciiVorbesc 17d ago
        >To be honest immigration happened forever because people look for a better place to live. I'd also want to go to SV, California, NY, Portland, etc as a better place to live, yet I need to do it legally, which I can't because of how hard getting a US work visa is, so I won't. Migration to the EU should be the same. Only accept people with a legal visa and nobody else. You're not entitled to be allowed to come in any country you want just because you want a better place to live. Those who do think otherwise, please open the doors of your house to everyone who wants to come in for a better place to live and take them in. > The able, hard working and entrepreneurial ones bring a lot to the countries they immigrate to. From various statistics from various EU governments you can look up, about half the migrants that they get via the open borders system are either unemployed or a general net negative to society, consuming more from the state via welfare than they contributor back via taxes. And that's when you don't even consider per capita crimes where migrants from some nations are overrepresented in jails per capita. So how many are "hard working entrepreneurial ones" is the EU actually getting and does that offset the societal and lives lost due to migrant crime and terror attacks? "Sure, your daughter doesn't feel safe alone at night and your wife got run over by a truck attacker, but just think of the GDP growth due to all the entrepreneurs that came with them"
  - vladms 17d ago
    Far-right mostly uses migrants as an easy scapegoats for any problem. In many countries I have seen migrants taken advantage of (worse work condition, employers not paying taxes, no healthcare provided, children have worse education, no insurance, etc). I wouldn't even mind if they would be honest about what they claim (being nationalist), but I don't see any right wing party talking seriously about programs to encourage natality, reduce poverty or improve education. Blaming a generic category for your problems rarely solves said problems. So, for me the boogeyman is talking about superfluous generic topics rather than solutions to problems I see: education, natality, energy, industry.
  - marcus_holmes 17d ago
    The far right are picking wedge issues not from principle, but from political expediency. In the UK they've switched from attacking immigrants to attacking disability benefits, because the clampdown on immigration was effective (though they obviously are continuing to shout about immigration and immigrants). So if the "open-door" immigration policy didn't exist, they would have picked something else as the wedge issue. They DGAF about immigration per se, it's just something that will rile up the base and get attention.
    - modo_mario 17d ago
      >because the clampdown on immigration was effective (though they obviously are continuing to shout about immigration and immigrants They still have 2-3 times the amount of migration they did in the 90's and that is assuming they're not masively underestimating again?
      - marcus_holmes 16d ago
        It's more the "small boats" crap that has reduced and therefore reduced their ability to shout about it.
        modo_mario 15d ago
        I think people want back to more historically normal levels of migration in general. Possibly less due to what one might consider an integration backlog due to rapid migration. The illegal migration was an easy target for this since it's indeed the only thing some people are opposed to and it doesn't quite activate a big created class of people that have a migrant background.
  - amrit3128 16d ago
    Ah yes immigration is the issue. Not almost every right politician colluding with either Kremlin, Israel or both
deleted 17d ago
[deleted]

by random3 17d ago

ronsor 17d ago

Europe has learned the lesson that extremists are bad, but it has not learned the lesson that the tools shouldn't exist.

ExoticPearTree 17d ago
There will always be extremists on both sides of the political spectrum. The problem is quite simple: people swing more to one side or another if their voices are not heard. The current boogeyman is the growth of the far-right in Europe. But that could have been prevented if the EU did not have an open-doors migration policy to start with. And to have listened to the people on other issues too.
- BonerWiener 17d ago
  > But that could have been prevented if the EU did not have an open-doors migration policy to start with. And to have listened to the people on other issues too. I believe there are more nuances to this, then simply blaming it on immigration policies. There are a lot of variables in place for why far right movements are and have been on the rise in the EU. And I certainly believe the issues could've been handled better by each member state. Yes, immigration is a serious problem. Especially if member States doesn't increase budgets for handling said immigrants. After all, why does immigration even happen in the first place? Aren't we as a western society responsible for the destruction and destabiliztion of the eastern countries?
  - ronsor 17d ago
    I don't think Spain or Sweden are very responsible for most of the Middle Eastern woes. If anything, blame the US.
    - ExoticPearTree 17d ago
      They are to blame because they allow people to cross their borders illegally. And in Spain's case, they're looking at giving them citizenship. And then they complain about crime.
  - vladms 17d ago
    To be honest immigration happened forever because people look for a better place to live. The able, hard working and entrepreneurial ones bring a lot to the countries they immigrate to. So, I do not see immigration as "a problem". Additionally Europe's natality is not great, it needs people working. So many enterprises in Europe are happy with that. Why is immigration presented as a problem? Because it is easy, does not affect directly any potential voter (I mean, if you say "rich are to blame", around half of the voters will not vote you, if you say "the poor are to blame" the other half will not vote you, but immigrants? No problem they generally don't vote) and because Europe has a tradition to seeing itself "above others". So if there are problems and you see dark people around, must be there fault, no? I really think they are (many) people that think like that (and I also met a couple)...
    - trinsic2 17d ago
      Certain parts of the UK is using that exact same approach it seems like. They are gaslighting there own populace by bringing in immigrants to take over work that is being stalled by protests and the only people that are noticing are the people that are the activists.
    - PorciiVorbesc 17d ago
      >To be honest immigration happened forever because people look for a better place to live. I'd also want to go to SV, California, NY, Portland, etc as a better place to live, yet I need to do it legally, which I can't because of how hard getting a US work visa is, so I won't. Migration to the EU should be the same. Only accept people with a legal visa and nobody else. You're not entitled to be allowed to come in any country you want just because you want a better place to live. Those who do think otherwise, please open the doors of your house to everyone who wants to come in for a better place to live and take them in. > The able, hard working and entrepreneurial ones bring a lot to the countries they immigrate to. From various statistics from various EU governments you can look up, about half the migrants that they get via the open borders system are either unemployed or a general net negative to society, consuming more from the state via welfare than they contributor back via taxes. And that's when you don't even consider per capita crimes where migrants from some nations are overrepresented in jails per capita. So how many are "hard working entrepreneurial ones" is the EU actually getting and does that offset the societal and lives lost due to migrant crime and terror attacks? "Sure, your daughter doesn't feel safe alone at night and your wife got run over by a truck attacker, but just think of the GDP growth due to all the entrepreneurs that came with them"
- vladms 17d ago
  Far-right mostly uses migrants as an easy scapegoats for any problem. In many countries I have seen migrants taken advantage of (worse work condition, employers not paying taxes, no healthcare provided, children have worse education, no insurance, etc). I wouldn't even mind if they would be honest about what they claim (being nationalist), but I don't see any right wing party talking seriously about programs to encourage natality, reduce poverty or improve education. Blaming a generic category for your problems rarely solves said problems. So, for me the boogeyman is talking about superfluous generic topics rather than solutions to problems I see: education, natality, energy, industry.
- marcus_holmes 17d ago
  The far right are picking wedge issues not from principle, but from political expediency. In the UK they've switched from attacking immigrants to attacking disability benefits, because the clampdown on immigration was effective (though they obviously are continuing to shout about immigration and immigrants). So if the "open-door" immigration policy didn't exist, they would have picked something else as the wedge issue. They DGAF about immigration per se, it's just something that will rile up the base and get attention.
  - modo_mario 17d ago
    >because the clampdown on immigration was effective (though they obviously are continuing to shout about immigration and immigrants They still have 2-3 times the amount of migration they did in the 90's and that is assuming they're not masively underestimating again?
    - marcus_holmes 16d ago
      It's more the "small boats" crap that has reduced and therefore reduced their ability to shout about it.
      - modo_mario 15d ago
        I think people want back to more historically normal levels of migration in general. Possibly less due to what one might consider an integration backlog due to rapid migration. The illegal migration was an easy target for this since it's indeed the only thing some people are opposed to and it doesn't quite activate a big created class of people that have a migrant background.
- amrit3128 16d ago
  Ah yes immigration is the issue. Not almost every right politician colluding with either Kremlin, Israel or both

deleted 17d ago

[deleted]