6 ms·

people freqently conflate Stand Your Ground vs Duty to Retreat... with the entire rest of the debate. I'm trying to keep this neutral, so I'm using a rather cu

people freqently conflate Stand Your Ground vs Duty to Retreat... with the entire rest of the debate. I'm trying to keep this neutral, so I'm using a rather cut and dry example: Somebody kicks in your door with a pump action and starts shooting- There are _some_ jurisdictions that require you to try and flee. You kill them and they werent bodily blocking your car in? Murder charge. investigation finds a sabatoged engine? Doesn't matter. Stand Your Ground assumes reasonableness and codifies leaveing the fight or flee decision up to the individual. Ultimately- you're going to have PTSD either way.

crote 17d ago
Your example isn't quite as cut-and-dry because in a lot of cases that's going to involve the Castle Doctrine as well, and "starts shooting" means there is an actual danger merely than a perceived potential danger. Counter-example: You're walking on the streets, at night, in the "bad part" of town. Someone walks towards you with their hands in their pockets, and their head covered with a hoodie. They say "Hey, what are you doing here?". You perceive this to be a threatening situation and fear for your life. Are you supposed to: a) pull out your gun and shoot them, or b) run away? Some proponents of Stand Your Ground would say that option A is perfectly fine, some proponents of Duty To Retreat would say that you must attempt option B first, and fall back to option A only as a last resort.
- butvacuum 17d ago
  It seems I may have misremembered my example and inadvertantly made duty to retreat appear worse than it is. However- it was meant to highlight the positons both sides and it holds correct enough for thst still.
derriz 17d ago
> Somebody kicks in your door with a pump action and starts shooting- There are _some_ jurisdictions that require you to try and flee. You kill them and they werent bodily blocking your car in? Murder charge. Which jurisdictions? Is this in the US? I’ve lived in a bunch of European countries and in none would you be charged with murder in that situation.
- oopsieDayz 17d ago
  It's a BS If someone comes through your home door guns akimbo in the US, blasting back is fine US Supreme court has often leaned heavily on right to protect self in one's own home in ruling against local and state laws that might ban ridiculous things.
  - zimpenfish 17d ago
    > If someone comes through your home door guns akimbo in the US, blasting back is fine Unless that someone is a cop, of course.
- lukan 17d ago
  Germany has had some weird court decisions in that regard, in general the law does say flee and not shoot back if this is an option. But mostly courts are reasonable and do not punish the victim. Only if the victim decides to use violence after the threat is over https://www.hrr-strafrecht.de/3/15/3-199-15.php https://www.hrr-strafrecht.de/3/15/3-199-15.php But there was even a case, where a hells angel shot a police officer in his home who were doing a raid - and got free (because they did not identify themself as police). https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/bgh-spricht-hells-angel-frei-toedlicher-irrtum-ohne-strafe https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/bgh-spricht-hells-a...
  - bulbar 17d ago
    The law says your are allowed to stand your ground. You don't have to flee. > But there was even a case, I don't know the details of the case, but if somebody thought some criminals are raiding his house with guns and it's reasonable the he thought that, then he's fully within his rights to defend himself and, depending on the necessities, by shooting at them. Still terrible what happened, of course.
    - lukan 17d ago
      "The law says your are allowed to stand your ground. You don't have to flee." No it does not in germany (and I think most other states of the world). If fleeing is a safe option - this is what you have to do instead of shooting. Reality just seldom is so clear.

crote 17d ago

Your example isn't quite as cut-and-dry because in a lot of cases that's going to involve the Castle Doctrine as well, and "starts shooting" means there is an actual danger merely than a perceived potential danger. Counter-example: You're walking on the streets, at night, in the "bad part" of town. Someone walks towards you with their hands in their pockets, and their head covered with a hoodie. They say "Hey, what are you doing here?". You perceive this to be a threatening situation and fear for your life. Are you supposed to: a) pull out your gun and shoot them, or b) run away? Some proponents of Stand Your Ground would say that option A is perfectly fine, some proponents of Duty To Retreat would say that you must attempt option B first, and fall back to option A only as a last resort.

butvacuum 17d ago
It seems I may have misremembered my example and inadvertantly made duty to retreat appear worse than it is. However- it was meant to highlight the positons both sides and it holds correct enough for thst still.

derriz 17d ago

> Somebody kicks in your door with a pump action and starts shooting- There are _some_ jurisdictions that require you to try and flee. You kill them and they werent bodily blocking your car in? Murder charge. Which jurisdictions? Is this in the US? I’ve lived in a bunch of European countries and in none would you be charged with murder in that situation.

oopsieDayz 17d ago
It's a BS If someone comes through your home door guns akimbo in the US, blasting back is fine US Supreme court has often leaned heavily on right to protect self in one's own home in ruling against local and state laws that might ban ridiculous things.
- zimpenfish 17d ago
  > If someone comes through your home door guns akimbo in the US, blasting back is fine Unless that someone is a cop, of course.
lukan 17d ago
Germany has had some weird court decisions in that regard, in general the law does say flee and not shoot back if this is an option. But mostly courts are reasonable and do not punish the victim. Only if the victim decides to use violence after the threat is over https://www.hrr-strafrecht.de/3/15/3-199-15.php https://www.hrr-strafrecht.de/3/15/3-199-15.php But there was even a case, where a hells angel shot a police officer in his home who were doing a raid - and got free (because they did not identify themself as police). https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/bgh-spricht-hells-angel-frei-toedlicher-irrtum-ohne-strafe https://www.lto.de/recht/hintergruende/h/bgh-spricht-hells-a...
- bulbar 17d ago
  The law says your are allowed to stand your ground. You don't have to flee. > But there was even a case, I don't know the details of the case, but if somebody thought some criminals are raiding his house with guns and it's reasonable the he thought that, then he's fully within his rights to defend himself and, depending on the necessities, by shooting at them. Still terrible what happened, of course.
  - lukan 17d ago
    "The law says your are allowed to stand your ground. You don't have to flee." No it does not in germany (and I think most other states of the world). If fleeing is a safe option - this is what you have to do instead of shooting. Reality just seldom is so clear.