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And trade. The last 18 months the US has shown itself to be a unreliable trade partner. Lots of companies are looking at diversifying both markets and supply ch

And trade. The last 18 months the US has shown itself to be a unreliable trade partner. Lots of companies are looking at diversifying both markets and supply chains. The recent trip of the Canadian PM to China is but the most visible part of this shift. That's at govt level, but I've seen it happen all the way down to individual level. US products are typically more expensive here than Chinese. But at least you were buying from a friendly supplier. That distinction is eroding quickly. In my experience it's forced people to try Chinese, and generally been surprised (in a good way) over quality and features. And yes, the price of oil has focused people much more at the EV market. (Not least because people with an EV already aren't shy about gloating). Pretty much everyone I talk to, who would buy a car "new" tells me their next one will be electric. The tipping point is coming much faster than most people think.

newsomix9xl 20d ago
I doubt the Canadians want their economy flooded with Chinese goods ("dumping" - selling goods at less than cost) - which destroys local industry. This was predicted in The Economist awhile back, that if the US blocked Chinese imports a tsunami of Chinese goods would flood other countries and now it's happening. Those countries will also, in turn, erect trade barriers, or suffer the devastation that massive Chinese dumping causes. So it's a nice protest gesture, but it's a cutting off your nose to spite your face gesture.
- inigyou 20d ago
  Oh no! Cheap goods and services! Maybe some other governments will be smart enough to not let a massive influx of nearly free stuff make everyone materially worse off. In fact it seems like only a completely idiotic system would make people worse off for having more free stuff.
  - rozal 20d ago
    oh no, lost jobs and and dying economy!
    - LoganDark 20d ago
      It is genuinely impossible to compete in a market where alternatives are cheaper enough, just look at how Amazon Basics squeezes competitors out of business.
      - BowBun 20d ago
        This is why free trade is important. We had a decent setup where countries were specializing in their own manufacturing/services specialties, and then we all paid each other for what we needed. Then some greedy fools decided they needed more, and started trying to charge more on the way out or on the way in. Now the ones that specialized in the 'must haves' of today have insane leverage over everyone else. Then the 'easy' answer is to prevent those goods from coming into your country. It's all so incredibly shortsighted, it deflates me.
        LoganDark 20d ago
        What are you saying? If people all choose a shitty version from China, there will be no market for a good local version and businesses will stop trying. The investment required to match China's manufacturing capability in any area is simply impossible unless you say it is an AI data center.
        agileAlligator 19d ago
        on what basis do you claim the local product is "good" if people are not choosing it?
        IAmBroom 19d ago
        You can manipulate the meaning of "good" to suit your purpose, but it generally refers to quality. Cost is a different aspect entirely. A one-dollar scoop of ice cream and a $100 scoop are both good.
        deleted 19d ago
- satvikpendem 20d ago
  Use joint ventures just as China does.
  - newsomix9xl 19d ago
    In which you have a non-optional deal with a state owned venture?
    - satvikpendem 19d ago
      Doesn't have to be state-owned but it probably helps if the state forces such a venture with their domestic companies. It's already occuring in many countries now that China is the dominant producer, such as Ford with Geely and Volkswagen with XPeng.
- bruce511 20d ago
  Hence the concept of trade partnerships. No country makes everything, and yes, there's lots of competition. Tarifs have existed since forever. Countries use them to protect local industries. But they've always been stable, and industry focused. Food production for example is worth protecting and Canada has tarifs on imported Dairy. Partnerships exist to protect local industries, promote exports, and give citizens access to cheap goods. It's a complex balance set up over time with lots of nuance and negotiating. Yes, sometimes tarifs kill a local industry as well. Lack of international competition let's local industry stagnate until it is dead. US ship building is a good example of this, and US Auto makers are trending in this direction. (Banning Chinese EVs is not bolstering the US EV production, it is causing the US manufacturers to ignore that market, and I don't think that ends well.) Tarifs are a powerful tool when wielded well. Alas right now the US in unstable. Local industries can't rely on tarifs existing next week, never mind 5 years from now. I'm not investing in a local hockey stick factory because the tarif could disappear at any time. In my country we get cheap solar panels from China. Frankly, let them sell below-cost if they like. (Hint, they're not below cost). We don't make them here, so cheap energy is good for all. The US negativity to Chinese goods seems to be around dumping (which happens, but not much), around quality (frankly much of it is very good) or around human rights. (Cause, you know, we bombed Iran to promote human rights...) I don't think Americans will suddenly love China. But the rest of the world is getting very cosy very quickly.
  - Paradigma11 19d ago
    But China wants to make everything, that is the problem. It might also be the case that we misunderstand the state of the Chinese economy quite a bit. I heard an argument by an economist that the situation is mainly explained by the real estate crash. That was a ginormous event but the government basically just denied any big consequences. That did kill the credit market for a long time. Now Chinese consumer have little money to spend and China is forced to export their products, no matter the price to keep things going.
    - hvb2 19d ago
      > But China wants to make everything As long as a typical Chinese person is happy with a standard of living that is far below what an American expects, China will be way cheaper on labor. For most products, labor is a significant cost. For a lot of consumers, price is more important then where it's made. Maybe not what they say they think is important but when they actually decide. As a result, China will make almost everything, along with the rest of south east Asia. Basically, the lower price for products comes at the cost of exporting your own jobs. One is easy to reason about when making a purchase decision, the other is indirect and abstract. Which is why the former wins
- nl 20d ago
  Accusations of Chinese dumping are cheap and easy to make, but the evidence is pretty mixed. Most actual cases have been of raw materials (eg steel, yarn) and industrial chemicals. I think this is a long way from the alleged "tsunami of Chinese goods". It's also worth noting that many Chinese manufactured goods would mostly substitute for US manufactured goods (eg cars). That's actually the whole point.
  - gonesilent 20d ago
    It showed up in Africa along some of the Belt and road initiative items. Lined with Chinese sellers, Raising chickens and selling Chinese goods.
  - newsomix9xl 19d ago
    China is accused of dumping cars too: https://euobserver.com/226294/eu-warns-europes-car-industry-in-mortal-danger-from-subsidised-chinese-dumping/ https://euobserver.com/226294/eu-warns-europes-car-industry-...
    - hvb2 19d ago
      Selling at a loss to capture market share, isn't that part of every SV startup? What makes it so bad in this case?
      - phainopepla2 19d ago
        Heavy subsidies by the state.
        disgruntledphd2 19d ago
        Surely if this is a problem, then heavy subsidies from private capital is also a problem? If there's a difference, I haven't heard a good explanation of it.
        to11mtm 19d ago
- deleted 20d ago
  [deleted]
- Henchman21 19d ago
  Selling below price to capture a market is now somehow BAD? Isn’t this the bread & butter of cutthroat capitalism? Isn’t it something we do endlessly? But when the Chinese do it its “dumping”?
  - xur17 19d ago
    For more complicated products, the fear is that this subsidy destroys all competition, and then you're dependent upon that country / company.
    - Henchman21 18d ago
      Right isn’t that the explicit goal of US companies? Why wouldn’t the same goal be ok for other nations to pursue? Hypocrisy is never a good look.
- saturn8601 19d ago
  It would be cool to have a native Canadian car company to defend and the only argument you can make for Chinese car dumping is that you dont want the only car companies remaining in the world to be Chinese. Thats a possibility yes since China has 100+ car companies, the population is overall declining in most western countries and there are already too many car companies for a shrinking pie of customers. But from Canada's point of view: they have already been threatened enough that im sure those remaining ford,gm and stellantis jobs might be gone eventually...so whats left? Maybe Canada can demand BYD open a car factory in Canada.
  - to11mtm 19d ago
    I'll be rude/bold enough to say that Canada's ability to argue around 'in-country' made goods has been eroded for decades; I will admit I'm going to point to a specific example; Canadian Bike makers have been able for at least a decade to get an unpainted frame from Taiwan/China/Etc, components from wherever, but so long as they painted the frame in canada and did final assembly in Canada... 'Made in Canada' alongside all of the tariff exemptions that came with that. > But from Canada's point of view: they have already been threatened enough that im sure those remaining ford,gm and stellantis jobs might be gone eventually... Guess you didn't hear about Brampton in the news, the Stellantis plant there might be on the chopping block...
    - saturn8601 19d ago
      Yeah Canada has natural limitations bigger countries like the US does not have but still, I wonder if good negoiation and maybe a changing situation in regards to the US's declining prospects might allow Canada to swing a bit higher in the future and demand something like this. There is a skilled workforce in place as well so maybe that changes the calculus.
- zeryx 19d ago
  I'm Canadian, the auto industry here died the moment trump started all of this tarrif talk in February, it just hasn't gotten cold yet. Because of the tarrif and trade war our local industries will struggle and collapse, there's nothing we can do about that - they were dependent on US trade partners and markets, the Canadian market is much smaller. We have massive productivity issues, there's little chance we'll successfully build our own auto industry. In the interim buying more from China doesn't really hurt us, and sends a strong signal to the remaining people who care about foreign policy in Washington that there are penalties to treating allies like enemies. I used to really strongly oppose Chinese expansion and the rise of cheap products getting dumped everywhere - I still do, but I oppose the US admin more; and at least they're stable and clear about what they want
  - LakesAndTrees 19d ago
    Seems pretty straightforward to me: Hey, China - start local plants and we’ll be happy to have as many EVs as we can build. After all, we’ll have plenty of idle auto workers.
    - zeryx 18d ago
      If Chinese industry is willing to operate at a loss in order to poke the US in the eye, sure - markets too small and labor too expensive otherwise imo.
realo 19d ago
I recently bought a BambuLab 3D printer. Designed and made in China. Right from the unpacking to first print the experience was top Apple-style quality. Indeed I was agreeably surprised.
- saturn8601 19d ago
  Its Apple'esque. The edge are still rough, and I don't trust their sketchy antics. People buy Apple because they earned that trust among their customer base. Is the device better than competitors, in my opinion yes but they are more along the lines of Samsung and not Apple. Caveat: (Yes I know geeks here will say apple users are just dumb and want a status symbol....they'll never get it)
- busterarm 19d ago
  So was my Prusa and they don't violate the GPL or lock me into their ecosystem. To each their own I guess.
  - realo 19d ago
    My comment was not say Prusa is inferior, but just to mention that "Made in China" today is really not like the "Made in China" of the 1970s. BTW I know nothing about 3D printers, but the Bambulab was recommended to me by a German friend who lives in Germany and is all about open-source ... He had printers since a long time and knows the ecosystem very well. He told me the BambuLab printer was better for me because less tinkering, and much cheaper, at similar quality... which is what i was looking for. We both are embedded systems engineers who work with Linux daily, so I trusted him. The results I get from the printer do not disappoint. However I totally get the Prusa vibe. Just not for my specific use case. To each his own indeed !
saturn8601 19d ago
>Pretty much everyone I talk to, who would buy a car "new" tells me their next one will be electric. The tipping point is coming much faster than most people think. People say a lot of things. If the infrastructure isn't there, it will end up like the US. I'm not sure Canadian EV infrastructure is up to snuff compared to China or even Europe. In the US a lot of people tried electric and now I am finding again and again, for many of these people, the next car after their EV is a gas car. Because poor implementation of the charging experience has put a bad first experience in many peoples minds. In the US K shaped economy, there are enough people that can stomach higher gas prices, and the lower portion of the K shaped economy has an even worse EV infrastructure or otherwise cannot afford most EVs(used or new) anyway.
- bahmboo 19d ago
  For a lot of people the infrastructure is an outlet in our garage. Going to the gas station is a novelty and just for snacks. Road trips are a few times a year and not a dealio at all. A PHEV is a nice sweet spot. It's 2026 and we are still debating this? There are a range of use cases for the population. We have semis, F350s towing landscape trailers, motorcycles, bikes, evs, NEVs, etc. Pick what you think will work best for your use case and iterate. Global political posturing doesn't move you anywhere.
  - saturn8601 19d ago
    >It's 2026 and we are still debating this? You can debate all you want. If I have learned anything this past decade, its the internet has little bearing on how real life turns out. Just look at the sales numbers. In the US they are now slightly declining after years of steady growth. I watch auto industry shows that talk about how executives who bet their reputations on the EV transition at places like Ford and GM now stand with destroyed careers because the demand was just not there and billions of wasted capital that had to be written down. A car company has to sell a product that the masses will buy. It turns out for the US (and I suspect Canda as well) that product is currently hybrids. It gets the fuel cost down for people while allowing them to not give up on what they come to expect.

newsomix9xl 20d ago

I doubt the Canadians want their economy flooded with Chinese goods ("dumping" - selling goods at less than cost) - which destroys local industry. This was predicted in The Economist awhile back, that if the US blocked Chinese imports a tsunami of Chinese goods would flood other countries and now it's happening. Those countries will also, in turn, erect trade barriers, or suffer the devastation that massive Chinese dumping causes. So it's a nice protest gesture, but it's a cutting off your nose to spite your face gesture.

inigyou 20d ago
Oh no! Cheap goods and services! Maybe some other governments will be smart enough to not let a massive influx of nearly free stuff make everyone materially worse off. In fact it seems like only a completely idiotic system would make people worse off for having more free stuff.
- rozal 20d ago
  oh no, lost jobs and and dying economy!
  - LoganDark 20d ago
    It is genuinely impossible to compete in a market where alternatives are cheaper enough, just look at how Amazon Basics squeezes competitors out of business.
    - BowBun 20d ago
      This is why free trade is important. We had a decent setup where countries were specializing in their own manufacturing/services specialties, and then we all paid each other for what we needed. Then some greedy fools decided they needed more, and started trying to charge more on the way out or on the way in. Now the ones that specialized in the 'must haves' of today have insane leverage over everyone else. Then the 'easy' answer is to prevent those goods from coming into your country. It's all so incredibly shortsighted, it deflates me.
      - LoganDark 20d ago
        What are you saying? If people all choose a shitty version from China, there will be no market for a good local version and businesses will stop trying. The investment required to match China's manufacturing capability in any area is simply impossible unless you say it is an AI data center.
        agileAlligator 19d ago
        on what basis do you claim the local product is "good" if people are not choosing it?
        IAmBroom 19d ago
        You can manipulate the meaning of "good" to suit your purpose, but it generally refers to quality. Cost is a different aspect entirely. A one-dollar scoop of ice cream and a $100 scoop are both good.
        deleted 19d ago
satvikpendem 20d ago
Use joint ventures just as China does.
- newsomix9xl 19d ago
  In which you have a non-optional deal with a state owned venture?
  - satvikpendem 19d ago
    Doesn't have to be state-owned but it probably helps if the state forces such a venture with their domestic companies. It's already occuring in many countries now that China is the dominant producer, such as Ford with Geely and Volkswagen with XPeng.
bruce511 20d ago
Hence the concept of trade partnerships. No country makes everything, and yes, there's lots of competition. Tarifs have existed since forever. Countries use them to protect local industries. But they've always been stable, and industry focused. Food production for example is worth protecting and Canada has tarifs on imported Dairy. Partnerships exist to protect local industries, promote exports, and give citizens access to cheap goods. It's a complex balance set up over time with lots of nuance and negotiating. Yes, sometimes tarifs kill a local industry as well. Lack of international competition let's local industry stagnate until it is dead. US ship building is a good example of this, and US Auto makers are trending in this direction. (Banning Chinese EVs is not bolstering the US EV production, it is causing the US manufacturers to ignore that market, and I don't think that ends well.) Tarifs are a powerful tool when wielded well. Alas right now the US in unstable. Local industries can't rely on tarifs existing next week, never mind 5 years from now. I'm not investing in a local hockey stick factory because the tarif could disappear at any time. In my country we get cheap solar panels from China. Frankly, let them sell below-cost if they like. (Hint, they're not below cost). We don't make them here, so cheap energy is good for all. The US negativity to Chinese goods seems to be around dumping (which happens, but not much), around quality (frankly much of it is very good) or around human rights. (Cause, you know, we bombed Iran to promote human rights...) I don't think Americans will suddenly love China. But the rest of the world is getting very cosy very quickly.
- Paradigma11 19d ago
  But China wants to make everything, that is the problem. It might also be the case that we misunderstand the state of the Chinese economy quite a bit. I heard an argument by an economist that the situation is mainly explained by the real estate crash. That was a ginormous event but the government basically just denied any big consequences. That did kill the credit market for a long time. Now Chinese consumer have little money to spend and China is forced to export their products, no matter the price to keep things going.
  - hvb2 19d ago
    > But China wants to make everything As long as a typical Chinese person is happy with a standard of living that is far below what an American expects, China will be way cheaper on labor. For most products, labor is a significant cost. For a lot of consumers, price is more important then where it's made. Maybe not what they say they think is important but when they actually decide. As a result, China will make almost everything, along with the rest of south east Asia. Basically, the lower price for products comes at the cost of exporting your own jobs. One is easy to reason about when making a purchase decision, the other is indirect and abstract. Which is why the former wins
nl 20d ago
Accusations of Chinese dumping are cheap and easy to make, but the evidence is pretty mixed. Most actual cases have been of raw materials (eg steel, yarn) and industrial chemicals. I think this is a long way from the alleged "tsunami of Chinese goods". It's also worth noting that many Chinese manufactured goods would mostly substitute for US manufactured goods (eg cars). That's actually the whole point.
- gonesilent 20d ago
  It showed up in Africa along some of the Belt and road initiative items. Lined with Chinese sellers, Raising chickens and selling Chinese goods.
- newsomix9xl 19d ago
  China is accused of dumping cars too: https://euobserver.com/226294/eu-warns-europes-car-industry-in-mortal-danger-from-subsidised-chinese-dumping/ https://euobserver.com/226294/eu-warns-europes-car-industry-...
  - hvb2 19d ago
    Selling at a loss to capture market share, isn't that part of every SV startup? What makes it so bad in this case?
    - phainopepla2 19d ago
      Heavy subsidies by the state.
      - disgruntledphd2 19d ago
        Surely if this is a problem, then heavy subsidies from private capital is also a problem? If there's a difference, I haven't heard a good explanation of it.
        to11mtm 19d ago
deleted 20d ago
[deleted]
Henchman21 19d ago
Selling below price to capture a market is now somehow BAD? Isn’t this the bread & butter of cutthroat capitalism? Isn’t it something we do endlessly? But when the Chinese do it its “dumping”?
- xur17 19d ago
  For more complicated products, the fear is that this subsidy destroys all competition, and then you're dependent upon that country / company.
  - Henchman21 18d ago
    Right isn’t that the explicit goal of US companies? Why wouldn’t the same goal be ok for other nations to pursue? Hypocrisy is never a good look.
saturn8601 19d ago
It would be cool to have a native Canadian car company to defend and the only argument you can make for Chinese car dumping is that you dont want the only car companies remaining in the world to be Chinese. Thats a possibility yes since China has 100+ car companies, the population is overall declining in most western countries and there are already too many car companies for a shrinking pie of customers. But from Canada's point of view: they have already been threatened enough that im sure those remaining ford,gm and stellantis jobs might be gone eventually...so whats left? Maybe Canada can demand BYD open a car factory in Canada.
- to11mtm 19d ago
  I'll be rude/bold enough to say that Canada's ability to argue around 'in-country' made goods has been eroded for decades; I will admit I'm going to point to a specific example; Canadian Bike makers have been able for at least a decade to get an unpainted frame from Taiwan/China/Etc, components from wherever, but so long as they painted the frame in canada and did final assembly in Canada... 'Made in Canada' alongside all of the tariff exemptions that came with that. > But from Canada's point of view: they have already been threatened enough that im sure those remaining ford,gm and stellantis jobs might be gone eventually... Guess you didn't hear about Brampton in the news, the Stellantis plant there might be on the chopping block...
  - saturn8601 19d ago
    Yeah Canada has natural limitations bigger countries like the US does not have but still, I wonder if good negoiation and maybe a changing situation in regards to the US's declining prospects might allow Canada to swing a bit higher in the future and demand something like this. There is a skilled workforce in place as well so maybe that changes the calculus.
zeryx 19d ago
I'm Canadian, the auto industry here died the moment trump started all of this tarrif talk in February, it just hasn't gotten cold yet. Because of the tarrif and trade war our local industries will struggle and collapse, there's nothing we can do about that - they were dependent on US trade partners and markets, the Canadian market is much smaller. We have massive productivity issues, there's little chance we'll successfully build our own auto industry. In the interim buying more from China doesn't really hurt us, and sends a strong signal to the remaining people who care about foreign policy in Washington that there are penalties to treating allies like enemies. I used to really strongly oppose Chinese expansion and the rise of cheap products getting dumped everywhere - I still do, but I oppose the US admin more; and at least they're stable and clear about what they want
- LakesAndTrees 19d ago
  Seems pretty straightforward to me: Hey, China - start local plants and we’ll be happy to have as many EVs as we can build. After all, we’ll have plenty of idle auto workers.
  - zeryx 18d ago
    If Chinese industry is willing to operate at a loss in order to poke the US in the eye, sure - markets too small and labor too expensive otherwise imo.

realo 19d ago

I recently bought a BambuLab 3D printer. Designed and made in China. Right from the unpacking to first print the experience was top Apple-style quality. Indeed I was agreeably surprised.

saturn8601 19d ago
Its Apple'esque. The edge are still rough, and I don't trust their sketchy antics. People buy Apple because they earned that trust among their customer base. Is the device better than competitors, in my opinion yes but they are more along the lines of Samsung and not Apple. Caveat: (Yes I know geeks here will say apple users are just dumb and want a status symbol....they'll never get it)
busterarm 19d ago
So was my Prusa and they don't violate the GPL or lock me into their ecosystem. To each their own I guess.
- realo 19d ago
  My comment was not say Prusa is inferior, but just to mention that "Made in China" today is really not like the "Made in China" of the 1970s. BTW I know nothing about 3D printers, but the Bambulab was recommended to me by a German friend who lives in Germany and is all about open-source ... He had printers since a long time and knows the ecosystem very well. He told me the BambuLab printer was better for me because less tinkering, and much cheaper, at similar quality... which is what i was looking for. We both are embedded systems engineers who work with Linux daily, so I trusted him. The results I get from the printer do not disappoint. However I totally get the Prusa vibe. Just not for my specific use case. To each his own indeed !

saturn8601 19d ago

>Pretty much everyone I talk to, who would buy a car "new" tells me their next one will be electric. The tipping point is coming much faster than most people think. People say a lot of things. If the infrastructure isn't there, it will end up like the US. I'm not sure Canadian EV infrastructure is up to snuff compared to China or even Europe. In the US a lot of people tried electric and now I am finding again and again, for many of these people, the next car after their EV is a gas car. Because poor implementation of the charging experience has put a bad first experience in many peoples minds. In the US K shaped economy, there are enough people that can stomach higher gas prices, and the lower portion of the K shaped economy has an even worse EV infrastructure or otherwise cannot afford most EVs(used or new) anyway.

bahmboo 19d ago
For a lot of people the infrastructure is an outlet in our garage. Going to the gas station is a novelty and just for snacks. Road trips are a few times a year and not a dealio at all. A PHEV is a nice sweet spot. It's 2026 and we are still debating this? There are a range of use cases for the population. We have semis, F350s towing landscape trailers, motorcycles, bikes, evs, NEVs, etc. Pick what you think will work best for your use case and iterate. Global political posturing doesn't move you anywhere.
- saturn8601 19d ago
  >It's 2026 and we are still debating this? You can debate all you want. If I have learned anything this past decade, its the internet has little bearing on how real life turns out. Just look at the sales numbers. In the US they are now slightly declining after years of steady growth. I watch auto industry shows that talk about how executives who bet their reputations on the EV transition at places like Ford and GM now stand with destroyed careers because the demand was just not there and billions of wasted capital that had to be written down. A car company has to sell a product that the masses will buy. It turns out for the US (and I suspect Canda as well) that product is currently hybrids. It gets the fuel cost down for people while allowing them to not give up on what they come to expect.