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> you’re demonstrating how far your head is in the sand Interesting. Perhaps ironic? If only society cared about genuinely good people like they seem to care

> you’re demonstrating how far your head is in the sand Interesting. Perhaps ironic? If only society cared about genuinely good people like they seem to care about Musk. It's puzzling.

testing22321 22d ago
I want to be clear: I don’t care about Musk as a person. I care about facts. I care about achievements. Just the same as saying Israel is committing genocide is not antisemitism, saying Musk has achieved incredible things is not caring about or supporting him. Both cases are simply stating facts without any judgement or show of support/not support.
- inemesitaffia 20d ago
  Isreal isn't committing genocide though. It's clear to anyone who isn't innumerate that it's implausible
- jjulius 22d ago
  >I care about facts. >Both cases are simply stating facts... Sure, unless (as I pointed out in my other response) we're playing fast and loose with what actually constitutes "facts".
- jrflowers 22d ago
  It is factually true that Elon Musk has a reputation for saying things will happen that do not end up happening. Picking out some things that you like about him and posting them while excluding the dozens of publicly documented examples of him either lying or (very charitably) being so “hopeful” that he’s disconnected from reality is indistinguishable from volunteering support. If your Tesla (made by a company he took private at $420/share) makes you passive income as a robotaxi while you sleep, which you spend paying off the loan you took out in 2020 for the ticket to Mars that you bought to avoid covid which ended up being pointless because nobody got it past April then I’d understand being confused about his reputation. If not, you kind of just posted a roundabout way of saying that you don’t care or notice when he makes stuff up.
  - testing22321 22d ago
    As both you and I said, Elon talks big and has failed to deliver on a ton of things That does not mean he has achieved nothing incredible. If John Carmack or Tim Cook or Henry Ford said they were going to make cheap, reliable fusion reactors in every home but never did, they would still be the legends they are for the things they did do successfully. The things they didn’t do don’t change what they did. The two are unrelated, infact.
    - jrflowers 20d ago
      Why are you listing other people that you imagine you wouldn’t mind if they were habitual liars
      - inemesitaffia 20d ago
        Because people have failures and successes and when the successes are bigger than the failure we consider that a success
        jrflowers 20d ago
        This is the thread where we’re all agreeing that Elon Musk has a reputation for making stuff up, I think you might mean to be posting in a thread where people are talking about how cool he is or something. You posted that the two things are unrelated so you might be mixing up a conversation that is happening with one that is not happening here If I wanted to have a completely different conversation, unrelated to his reputation for making stuff up, with a fan about his creations I’d say something like “He created reusable rockets? Wow that Elon guy must have so many patents relating to aerospace and manufacturing” but that would be a totally different thread
        inemesitaffia 19d ago
        Nah. I'm pretty clear about not agreeing. People have goals they work towards... Sometimes they have success/failure. That's different from "making stuff up"
- sixothree 22d ago
  > I don’t care about Musk as a person. How convenient. You have to ignore him on a personal level to be a supporter like you are. Because you know he's a repulsive individual on every level. And if you didn't qualify your support for him you'd debase yourself.
  - testing22321 22d ago
    I’m not a supporter. I’m simply stating facts That are easily verifiable.
- n4r9 22d ago
  "Incredible" is a subjective word. It describes how one feels about his achievements. It also has a strong connotation of positivity (you don't usually hear people say that the Holocaust was an incredible achievement despite the unique amount of planning and effort that went into it). This is not in the realm of facts. It could be factual to say "I find his achievements incredible" or "many people find his achievements incredible". But not "he has achieved incredible things".
  - testing22321 21d ago
    > ”Incredible" is a subjective word And subjectively, launching more to orbit than the rest of the world is an incredible achievement. So is reusing a first stage rocket 300 times. So is building the world’s best selling car. These are incredibly difficult things to do, hence, “incredible”
    - n4r9 21d ago
      I'm not sure what you're saying here. That he's launched so many rockets to orbit is a fact. That this is an "incredible achievement" is a subjective interpretation.
      - testing22321 21d ago
        How would you describe the achievement? Personally I describe nuclear weapons as incredible (though also horrific).
        n4r9 20d ago
        Remarkable, perhaps? I'd hesitate to use "incredible" because his background privilege and wealth makes it all... well, more credible; and using such an unalloyed, positive word feels wrong given the costs to his relationships and his promotions of far-right groups and conspiracy theories. His path is unique, but it's believable and nuanced. That's beside the point though, which is that you can't say something being "incredible" is a fact. It's a subjective judgement.

> you’re demonstrating how far your head is in the sand Interesting. Perhaps ironic? If only society cared about genuinely good people like they seem to care about Musk. It's puzzling.

testing22321 22d ago

I want to be clear: I don’t care about Musk as a person. I care about facts. I care about achievements. Just the same as saying Israel is committing genocide is not antisemitism, saying Musk has achieved incredible things is not caring about or supporting him. Both cases are simply stating facts without any judgement or show of support/not support.

inemesitaffia 20d ago
Isreal isn't committing genocide though. It's clear to anyone who isn't innumerate that it's implausible
jjulius 22d ago
>I care about facts. >Both cases are simply stating facts... Sure, unless (as I pointed out in my other response) we're playing fast and loose with what actually constitutes "facts".
jrflowers 22d ago
It is factually true that Elon Musk has a reputation for saying things will happen that do not end up happening. Picking out some things that you like about him and posting them while excluding the dozens of publicly documented examples of him either lying or (very charitably) being so “hopeful” that he’s disconnected from reality is indistinguishable from volunteering support. If your Tesla (made by a company he took private at $420/share) makes you passive income as a robotaxi while you sleep, which you spend paying off the loan you took out in 2020 for the ticket to Mars that you bought to avoid covid which ended up being pointless because nobody got it past April then I’d understand being confused about his reputation. If not, you kind of just posted a roundabout way of saying that you don’t care or notice when he makes stuff up.
- testing22321 22d ago
  As both you and I said, Elon talks big and has failed to deliver on a ton of things That does not mean he has achieved nothing incredible. If John Carmack or Tim Cook or Henry Ford said they were going to make cheap, reliable fusion reactors in every home but never did, they would still be the legends they are for the things they did do successfully. The things they didn’t do don’t change what they did. The two are unrelated, infact.
  - jrflowers 20d ago
    Why are you listing other people that you imagine you wouldn’t mind if they were habitual liars
    - inemesitaffia 20d ago
      Because people have failures and successes and when the successes are bigger than the failure we consider that a success
      - jrflowers 20d ago
        This is the thread where we’re all agreeing that Elon Musk has a reputation for making stuff up, I think you might mean to be posting in a thread where people are talking about how cool he is or something. You posted that the two things are unrelated so you might be mixing up a conversation that is happening with one that is not happening here If I wanted to have a completely different conversation, unrelated to his reputation for making stuff up, with a fan about his creations I’d say something like “He created reusable rockets? Wow that Elon guy must have so many patents relating to aerospace and manufacturing” but that would be a totally different thread
        inemesitaffia 19d ago
        Nah. I'm pretty clear about not agreeing. People have goals they work towards... Sometimes they have success/failure. That's different from "making stuff up"
sixothree 22d ago
> I don’t care about Musk as a person. How convenient. You have to ignore him on a personal level to be a supporter like you are. Because you know he's a repulsive individual on every level. And if you didn't qualify your support for him you'd debase yourself.
- testing22321 22d ago
  I’m not a supporter. I’m simply stating facts That are easily verifiable.
n4r9 22d ago
"Incredible" is a subjective word. It describes how one feels about his achievements. It also has a strong connotation of positivity (you don't usually hear people say that the Holocaust was an incredible achievement despite the unique amount of planning and effort that went into it). This is not in the realm of facts. It could be factual to say "I find his achievements incredible" or "many people find his achievements incredible". But not "he has achieved incredible things".
- testing22321 21d ago
  > ”Incredible" is a subjective word And subjectively, launching more to orbit than the rest of the world is an incredible achievement. So is reusing a first stage rocket 300 times. So is building the world’s best selling car. These are incredibly difficult things to do, hence, “incredible”
  - n4r9 21d ago
    I'm not sure what you're saying here. That he's launched so many rockets to orbit is a fact. That this is an "incredible achievement" is a subjective interpretation.
    - testing22321 21d ago
      How would you describe the achievement? Personally I describe nuclear weapons as incredible (though also horrific).
      - n4r9 20d ago
        Remarkable, perhaps? I'd hesitate to use "incredible" because his background privilege and wealth makes it all... well, more credible; and using such an unalloyed, positive word feels wrong given the costs to his relationships and his promotions of far-right groups and conspiracy theories. His path is unique, but it's believable and nuanced. That's beside the point though, which is that you can't say something being "incredible" is a fact. It's a subjective judgement.