4 ms·

Spain also smashes foreigners owning a property in Spain. They see tourists and foreigners (even if they're from the EU) as a gigantic target to squeeze and sc

Spain also smashes foreigners owning a property in Spain. They see tourists and foreigners (even if they're from the EU) as a gigantic target to squeeze and screw as hard as they can. That's what you get when your economy is based on tourism and rich foreigners owning property there: you have to squeeze those hard for it's basically all you have. Officially tourism is "only" about 15% of the GDP but Spain is a service economy and so many of those services revolve around tourism and foreigner owning properties there. Same for the construction sector: they love it when rich tourists have fancy villas built there. My wife used to own a house there. So did her mom. They sold it all and kissed Spain goodbye once and for all: too disgusted by how the fiscal authorities were treating them. I won't go on vacation there anymore. Both my wife and my daughter speak spanish and yet we don't plan to go there anymore: she's done giving money to Spain to be seen, in return, as a lemon out of which more juice can be squeezed. Vote with your feet and you wallet: when a country tries to fuck you, give it the middle finger.

marc 23d ago
> “Spain also smashes foreigners owning a property in Spain.” In which way?
- Grombobulous 23d ago
  Usually when people say stuff like this it translates to “the tax rate is slightly higher than [insert less desirable location here]” or "my marginal tax rate seems really high since I have a very high income"
  - germandiago 23d ago
    > "my marginal tax rate seems really high since I have a very high income" You can read my comment above. If it was only that... it is way more than that. But hey, a high income is not a reason to overtax over 50% to anyone. That is crazy just based on the idea of "because they earn more" IMHO.
    - Grombobulous 23d ago
      I don’t think your comment above did your argument a lot of favors. ~50% taxation rate is not even a particularly uncommon tax rate for top earners. Basically every developed country has that. From 1932 to 1981 the top federal tax rate in the United States was over 60%, peaking above 90%.
      - germandiago 23d ago
        Rape and murder is not uncommon either and I think we can agree it is not something desirable.
        deleted 22d ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 22d ago
        [deleted]
        Grombobulous 22d ago
        Ice cream is also not uncommon. Wait, what were we talking about again?
        germandiago 22d ago
        We were talking about the fact that: > ~50% taxation rate is not even a particularly uncommon tax rate for top earners. Basically every developed country has that. > From 1932 to 1981 the top federal tax rate in the United States was over 60%, peaking above 90%. It sounded like you equate common = good or acceptable. I dispute that. I replied that slavery is bad (abusive taxing can be seen as a way of slavery), independently of how much you earn. So I asked you if murder and rape are good just because they are common, to see if you would be able to link it to the fact that because that level of taxing is normalized, it is not ethical. You clearly understood it. Instead of ackowledging that maybe it is not ethical, you started gaslighting. But if it is ethical, explain to me under which justification you make taking things via coercion from people is a good thing, as if they belonged a different category. In which idea do you base that? Because I have a terrible difficulty understanding these things.
- x0x0 23d ago
  Spain charges you tax if you rent the property out. If you don't rent the property out, it imputes a rent and you are charged tax on the imputed rent. The cadastral value is (finger in the air) 40% of the value of the property; you pay (non-eu resident) 24% of between 1.1% and 2% of the cadastral value. So 0.1%-0.2% of property value annually.
  - thfuran 23d ago
    0.2% is significantly lower than the property tax rate I pay on my house, and taxing vacant property seems like a good idea to try to disincentivize inefficient use of limited urban real estate.
    - x0x0 23d ago
      You won't get any disagreement from me.
  - elric 23d ago
    So what? Lots of places do this. It's not unique to Spain and it's simply a tax ob real estate.
  - gib444 23d ago
    > So 0.1%-0.2% of property value annually. You're highlighting how amazingly low that is right? In the UK (edit: England) unoccupied council tax charges can be in the region of £3000-8000/year (200% of the normal council tax bill)
    - x0x0 23d ago
      Yeah, a $800k property paying 0.2% or $1600/year is... seems low for the provision of roads, schools, firefighters, etc.
      - Ekaros 23d ago
        Property tax is not only taxation model. In some systems taxes are not really earmarked ton specific purposes instead they go to general budget and are then redistributed. So you can have lower property tax but otherwise higher other taxes and still pay for the stuff.
- germandiago 23d ago
  Read my comment above.
germandiago 23d ago
> Spain also smashes foreigners owning a property in Spain. I know this, just look at the media, removing Golden Visa (as if it was a problem to have a minority there getting some houses) or Richard Gere, that he run away bc he had to pay more money in Spain that he does in US, where salaries are much higher. Absurd. Or the prosecution to Shakira, Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo. They love to show who is the "land owner". To the normal people I do not want even to start. There is also the case of Xabi Alonso, the football player and trainer, who fought and, like Shakira, etc. won. These are people with lots of money, but not for that it is fair to do that to them either. To the normal citizens it is much, much worse, since they do not have the resources to protect themselves and they prefer to pay a "fine by agreement" (namely, extortion) than to get through a multi-year process. In the meantime they preventively seize the amounts they ask for, even if you go bankrupt, if you decide to go ahead. If you win, which is something people do not even dare to go through because of the seizing, then they will pay interests to you with the money of the other tax payers! Great!!! And you know what is the punishment for the tax inspector when this happens? Let me tell you: nothing, zero. So they do it systematically. It is a place where I do not want to have much money into, and I am spanish. I wish things were different, I mean it: I am from there, my family is from there, lots of my friends are there. But no, it is not possible... PIT reaches 47% starting at 60.000, it can reach even 54% at 300,000 euros I think it was (now probably more). It is just crazy. But this is just PIT: inherit? Pay taxes. Capital gain? Pay. Own a house and sell it? Pay taxes + capital gain. Want to buy a house? A tax with the 10% of the value. VAT? 21%. Gasoline, etc.? Reaches roughly 50% or more sometimes, depending on exact area. You earn 80,000 in Spain and you end up paying literally (and I tell you bc I used to have a salary like that years ago) 65% or 70% of taxes if you account for all. You want to be a freelancer? Prepare 300 euros... per month, just for permission to work. Of course, that is the start only. Now declare VAT every 3 months, go stand the tax agency requests and spend all the year in bureaucracy (that is why most people just delegate it, of course, causing expenses to them). It is literally hyper-extractive. There is a reason why in Spain so many people want to be public workers. And do not think they think they should treat the private sector better. Noooo! You are there to pay, whatever the State needs. It is just your obligation without any regard for sensible spending, efficiency or whatever. If you make money you are kind of a somewhat suspicious person or something like that. It is a very extended mindset, sadly.
seydor 23d ago
To be honest i have no sympathy for immigra,,, er sorry expats. It is pure location arbitrage: rich pensioners moving to south europe to get a vastly bigger bang for their buck than they would get back home. It would eventually backfire, and i am glad it does. It was idiotic of the touristic countries to invite this kind of thing in the first place.
- germandiago 22d ago
  I am not sure what is wrong about that: they spend their money and that money falls in the hands of locals. I do not mean it should be the priority of a country (it should be other economic sources) but I do not find it harmful.
  - seydor 22d ago
    when there is location arbitrage, then someone is benefiting at the expense of someone else. Practically, expats add to the pensioner population of the country (except for the burden of paying their pensions). European countries are designed to require large working populations to sustain public services (which older people will disproportionaly use more). Add to that the unintended consequences such as high real estate prices. Therefore i believe that overall, it harmful.

marc 23d ago

> “Spain also smashes foreigners owning a property in Spain.” In which way?

Grombobulous 23d ago
Usually when people say stuff like this it translates to “the tax rate is slightly higher than [insert less desirable location here]” or "my marginal tax rate seems really high since I have a very high income"
- germandiago 23d ago
  > "my marginal tax rate seems really high since I have a very high income" You can read my comment above. If it was only that... it is way more than that. But hey, a high income is not a reason to overtax over 50% to anyone. That is crazy just based on the idea of "because they earn more" IMHO.
  - Grombobulous 23d ago
    I don’t think your comment above did your argument a lot of favors. ~50% taxation rate is not even a particularly uncommon tax rate for top earners. Basically every developed country has that. From 1932 to 1981 the top federal tax rate in the United States was over 60%, peaking above 90%.
    - germandiago 23d ago
      Rape and murder is not uncommon either and I think we can agree it is not something desirable.
      - deleted 22d ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 22d ago
        [deleted]
      - Grombobulous 22d ago
        Ice cream is also not uncommon. Wait, what were we talking about again?
        germandiago 22d ago
        We were talking about the fact that: > ~50% taxation rate is not even a particularly uncommon tax rate for top earners. Basically every developed country has that. > From 1932 to 1981 the top federal tax rate in the United States was over 60%, peaking above 90%. It sounded like you equate common = good or acceptable. I dispute that. I replied that slavery is bad (abusive taxing can be seen as a way of slavery), independently of how much you earn. So I asked you if murder and rape are good just because they are common, to see if you would be able to link it to the fact that because that level of taxing is normalized, it is not ethical. You clearly understood it. Instead of ackowledging that maybe it is not ethical, you started gaslighting. But if it is ethical, explain to me under which justification you make taking things via coercion from people is a good thing, as if they belonged a different category. In which idea do you base that? Because I have a terrible difficulty understanding these things.
x0x0 23d ago
Spain charges you tax if you rent the property out. If you don't rent the property out, it imputes a rent and you are charged tax on the imputed rent. The cadastral value is (finger in the air) 40% of the value of the property; you pay (non-eu resident) 24% of between 1.1% and 2% of the cadastral value. So 0.1%-0.2% of property value annually.
- thfuran 23d ago
  0.2% is significantly lower than the property tax rate I pay on my house, and taxing vacant property seems like a good idea to try to disincentivize inefficient use of limited urban real estate.
  - x0x0 23d ago
    You won't get any disagreement from me.
- elric 23d ago
  So what? Lots of places do this. It's not unique to Spain and it's simply a tax ob real estate.
- gib444 23d ago
  > So 0.1%-0.2% of property value annually. You're highlighting how amazingly low that is right? In the UK (edit: England) unoccupied council tax charges can be in the region of £3000-8000/year (200% of the normal council tax bill)
  - x0x0 23d ago
    Yeah, a $800k property paying 0.2% or $1600/year is... seems low for the provision of roads, schools, firefighters, etc.
    - Ekaros 23d ago
      Property tax is not only taxation model. In some systems taxes are not really earmarked ton specific purposes instead they go to general budget and are then redistributed. So you can have lower property tax but otherwise higher other taxes and still pay for the stuff.
germandiago 23d ago
Read my comment above.

germandiago 23d ago

> Spain also smashes foreigners owning a property in Spain. I know this, just look at the media, removing Golden Visa (as if it was a problem to have a minority there getting some houses) or Richard Gere, that he run away bc he had to pay more money in Spain that he does in US, where salaries are much higher. Absurd. Or the prosecution to Shakira, Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo. They love to show who is the "land owner". To the normal people I do not want even to start. There is also the case of Xabi Alonso, the football player and trainer, who fought and, like Shakira, etc. won. These are people with lots of money, but not for that it is fair to do that to them either. To the normal citizens it is much, much worse, since they do not have the resources to protect themselves and they prefer to pay a "fine by agreement" (namely, extortion) than to get through a multi-year process. In the meantime they preventively seize the amounts they ask for, even if you go bankrupt, if you decide to go ahead. If you win, which is something people do not even dare to go through because of the seizing, then they will pay interests to you with the money of the other tax payers! Great!!! And you know what is the punishment for the tax inspector when this happens? Let me tell you: nothing, zero. So they do it systematically. It is a place where I do not want to have much money into, and I am spanish. I wish things were different, I mean it: I am from there, my family is from there, lots of my friends are there. But no, it is not possible... PIT reaches 47% starting at 60.000, it can reach even 54% at 300,000 euros I think it was (now probably more). It is just crazy. But this is just PIT: inherit? Pay taxes. Capital gain? Pay. Own a house and sell it? Pay taxes + capital gain. Want to buy a house? A tax with the 10% of the value. VAT? 21%. Gasoline, etc.? Reaches roughly 50% or more sometimes, depending on exact area. You earn 80,000 in Spain and you end up paying literally (and I tell you bc I used to have a salary like that years ago) 65% or 70% of taxes if you account for all. You want to be a freelancer? Prepare 300 euros... per month, just for permission to work. Of course, that is the start only. Now declare VAT every 3 months, go stand the tax agency requests and spend all the year in bureaucracy (that is why most people just delegate it, of course, causing expenses to them). It is literally hyper-extractive. There is a reason why in Spain so many people want to be public workers. And do not think they think they should treat the private sector better. Noooo! You are there to pay, whatever the State needs. It is just your obligation without any regard for sensible spending, efficiency or whatever. If you make money you are kind of a somewhat suspicious person or something like that. It is a very extended mindset, sadly.

seydor 23d ago

To be honest i have no sympathy for immigra,,, er sorry expats. It is pure location arbitrage: rich pensioners moving to south europe to get a vastly bigger bang for their buck than they would get back home. It would eventually backfire, and i am glad it does. It was idiotic of the touristic countries to invite this kind of thing in the first place.

germandiago 22d ago
I am not sure what is wrong about that: they spend their money and that money falls in the hands of locals. I do not mean it should be the priority of a country (it should be other economic sources) but I do not find it harmful.
- seydor 22d ago
  when there is location arbitrage, then someone is benefiting at the expense of someone else. Practically, expats add to the pensioner population of the country (except for the burden of paying their pensions). European countries are designed to require large working populations to sustain public services (which older people will disproportionaly use more). Add to that the unintended consequences such as high real estate prices. Therefore i believe that overall, it harmful.