6 ms·

unlock old hardware and let the community support

by seemaze 26d ago

6510 26d ago
Government could hold the keys. Sufficient weird behavior should also trigger release.
- chocolatkey 26d ago
  You really want to trust the government with keys to the kingdom? Like what they wanted here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d... And no, I wouldn’t trust an EU government or coalition any more than the US or any other country
  - 6510 25d ago
    Could have a distributed system so physical access gives you nothing. Could have the vendor pick a time for release. If all nodes agree the time has arrived release the payload. Make it so that nothing can be released silently. Give the vendor some time to sound the alarm if something goes wrong. I don't know to what extend you could do a key update on illegitimate released. It seems you have bigger problems to worry about at that point. To do it earlier you could have judges sign for release and require one or more judge keys to decrypt the vendor keys.
vv_ 26d ago
It is not always possible to provide the required support. First, it is expensive, as someone needs to prepare all the materials and resources the community would need to continue supporting the product after official support ends. Second, there are legal restrictions, for example, you may not be allowed to provide access to the radio firmware. Finally, most companies simply do not want to make their intellectual property publicly available. You could make the argument that manufacturers only need to provide the means for the community to support the device, rather than extensive documentation. However, these communities are often so small that this would never be a priority for most companies. Combined with the IP-related issues, I don't think this is really feasible.
- realusername 26d ago
  > Finally, most companies simply do not want to make their intellectual property publicly available. You can just stop to the last reason, they don't want to give up ownership back to you. They would prefer you to throw the device in the bin and buy a new one, preferably from them again.
  - vv_ 26d ago
    > they don't want to give up ownership back to you No, it's simply that your demand is completely unreasonable. You are essentially asking them to adopt an open-source model. That can mean giving up control over its intellectual property and potentially exposing proprietary technology to competitors, especially when some products are valuable precisely because of the software that runs on them. Edit: I don't know why it is not allowing me to reply to you. > No, I'm asking these devices to work like normal computers What exactly is a "normal computer," and what specific behavior are you expecting? Can you freely tinker with your motherboard's firmware? Can you modify the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi firmware on your motherboard? Can you modify and independently update the internals of Windows itself? These are all examples of components that are proprietary and subject to limitations, even on what we would consider a "normal computer." There may be some exceptions to the above, but the same generally applies to mass-produced, commercially distributed devices. They are often locked down for technical, legal, and security reasons, and "unlocking" them is simply not a reasonable expectation in many cases.
    - realusername 26d ago
      No, I'm asking these devices to work like normal computers, because that's what they are. Also I doubt that there's anything left on 2015 era hardware that will grant you an edge on current age competitors To give a reply: > Can you freely tinker with your motherboard's firmware? Can you modify the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi firmware on your motherboard? Can you modify and independently update the internals of Windows itself? These are all examples of components that are proprietary and subject to limitations, even on what we would consider a "normal computer." Yes I expect do be able to do all of those things if I want to, it's my computer and I should be free to do whatever I want on it. Including modifying firmware, modifying the OS and modifying anything else you can think of. Do I want to do all of these? Probably not but the freedom for me to do it should be there if I change my mind. And no, it's a reasonable expectation.
dwaite 25d ago
It is a nice thought, but there may not be a ton of effort in starting reverse engineering projects on a full custom silicon stack 7+ years after release (when Apple typically stops supporting hardware)

unlock old hardware and let the community support

by seemaze 26d ago

unlock old hardware and let the community support

6510 26d ago

Government could hold the keys. Sufficient weird behavior should also trigger release.

chocolatkey 26d ago
You really want to trust the government with keys to the kingdom? Like what they wanted here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d... And no, I wouldn’t trust an EU government or coalition any more than the US or any other country
- 6510 25d ago
  Could have a distributed system so physical access gives you nothing. Could have the vendor pick a time for release. If all nodes agree the time has arrived release the payload. Make it so that nothing can be released silently. Give the vendor some time to sound the alarm if something goes wrong. I don't know to what extend you could do a key update on illegitimate released. It seems you have bigger problems to worry about at that point. To do it earlier you could have judges sign for release and require one or more judge keys to decrypt the vendor keys.

vv_ 26d ago

It is not always possible to provide the required support. First, it is expensive, as someone needs to prepare all the materials and resources the community would need to continue supporting the product after official support ends. Second, there are legal restrictions, for example, you may not be allowed to provide access to the radio firmware. Finally, most companies simply do not want to make their intellectual property publicly available. You could make the argument that manufacturers only need to provide the means for the community to support the device, rather than extensive documentation. However, these communities are often so small that this would never be a priority for most companies. Combined with the IP-related issues, I don't think this is really feasible.

realusername 26d ago
> Finally, most companies simply do not want to make their intellectual property publicly available. You can just stop to the last reason, they don't want to give up ownership back to you. They would prefer you to throw the device in the bin and buy a new one, preferably from them again.
- vv_ 26d ago
  > they don't want to give up ownership back to you No, it's simply that your demand is completely unreasonable. You are essentially asking them to adopt an open-source model. That can mean giving up control over its intellectual property and potentially exposing proprietary technology to competitors, especially when some products are valuable precisely because of the software that runs on them. Edit: I don't know why it is not allowing me to reply to you. > No, I'm asking these devices to work like normal computers What exactly is a "normal computer," and what specific behavior are you expecting? Can you freely tinker with your motherboard's firmware? Can you modify the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi firmware on your motherboard? Can you modify and independently update the internals of Windows itself? These are all examples of components that are proprietary and subject to limitations, even on what we would consider a "normal computer." There may be some exceptions to the above, but the same generally applies to mass-produced, commercially distributed devices. They are often locked down for technical, legal, and security reasons, and "unlocking" them is simply not a reasonable expectation in many cases.
  - realusername 26d ago
    No, I'm asking these devices to work like normal computers, because that's what they are. Also I doubt that there's anything left on 2015 era hardware that will grant you an edge on current age competitors To give a reply: > Can you freely tinker with your motherboard's firmware? Can you modify the Bluetooth or Wi-Fi firmware on your motherboard? Can you modify and independently update the internals of Windows itself? These are all examples of components that are proprietary and subject to limitations, even on what we would consider a "normal computer." Yes I expect do be able to do all of those things if I want to, it's my computer and I should be free to do whatever I want on it. Including modifying firmware, modifying the OS and modifying anything else you can think of. Do I want to do all of these? Probably not but the freedom for me to do it should be there if I change my mind. And no, it's a reasonable expectation.

dwaite 25d ago

It is a nice thought, but there may not be a ton of effort in starting reverse engineering projects on a full custom silicon stack 7+ years after release (when Apple typically stops supporting hardware)