20 ms·

Isn't most of this already in xlibre?

• nazgulsenpai 29d ago
  People have all kind of opinions about xlibre as a project and the politics around it that I'm not interested in, but if they're driving xorg to improve, that's a good thing. I'm not some anti-wayland zealot but you will pry xfce out of my cold dead hands.
  • redsocksfan45 29d ago
    [dead]
  • abenga 29d ago
    Even xfce will one day move to Wayland.
    • nazgulsenpai 29d ago
      And I'll be there.
    • boudin 29d ago
      There's already and experimental support no?
    • wing-_-nuts 29d ago
      With a project as user/dev hostile as wayland, it's much better to be a 'last mover' than first. For the life of me, I'll never understand how wayland got traction with the community. 'Hey guys, we decided to implement a display server from scratch! We broke a ton of existing functionality and made a ton of low level stuff that X used to handle the responsibility of WM/DE devs!'
      • naikrovek 29d ago
        [dead]
      • dralley 29d ago
        Wayland is not a "display server", it's a display protocol. A lot of the "existing functionality" that it broke has nothing to do with displays, it's stuff that got crammed into Xorg at some point whether it made sense or not. I find it quite funny that many of the same people that rag on systemd and say it does too many things, are big fans of Xorg doing a bunch of things that "display server" probably should not be handling. Even if Wayland was a "display server", it would still "remove existing functionality" if it meant that in any principled sense, because "display server" is only half of what Xorg does. But sure, the transition was difficult and took a long time.
        • wing-_-nuts 29d ago
          >Wayland is not a "display server", it's a display protocol. I, as an end user, do NOT care. >A lot of the "existing functionality" that it broke has nothing to do with displays, it's stuff that got crammed into Xorg at some point whether it made sense or not. I also don't care about ivory tower ideals of what is within the dominion of 'display' and what is not. The fact of the matter is their changes broke a ton of functionality, and instead of even trying to provide feature parity, they basically dumped all that responsibility onto the WM/DE devs. I have no idea why the community didn't take one look at their proposal and flatly ignore them.
          • skydhash 29d ago
            This pretty much. Xorg got almost everything that I care about to have a functionning GUI. You only startx and the only thing you may need are utils programs like a wm, a compositor, a bar… now you have conflicting implementation from gnome, kde, wlroots,… each with its own set of features.
            • wing-_-nuts 29d ago
              Yeah, instead of the wayland folks leading the effort to fix issues, it's often some individual DE / WM going off, fixing it the way they prefer, and wayland grudgingly adopting it as official because they know the ecosystem is fragmenting bad enough as it is.
      • M95D 29d ago
        I think it was the "security" argument. Some magic words like "security" and "protect the children" make most people go insane, abandon all reason.
        • dralley 29d ago
          Xorg's security (and X11 in general) is objectively terrible - this is not even a debatable question.
          • wing-_-nuts 29d ago
            Great, so let wayland be a hardened option for those who care.
            • mort96 29d ago
              It is and you're free to use X if you want
              • nazgulsenpai 29d ago
                IMO the issue is that the same group stewarding Wayland was also xorg, and intentionally stifled improvement on xorg even when the work just a matter of merging the PR.
                • dralley 29d ago
                  >and intentionally stifled improvement on xorg Open source developers are not required to spend their time prioritizing your priorities. You just have to look to Xlibre to see that a lot of contributions are quite bad quality, and in a C codebase of Xorg's complexity and security profile it's not a small job to review things.
                  • nazgulsenpai 29d ago
                    Nothing I said in any way implied that freedesktop should be required to do anything. I can't speak to the quality of xlibre merges, only that if whatever is going on over there led to improvements in xorg after a drought, that's a good thing.
      • doublerabbit 29d ago
        > For the life of me, I'll never understand how wayland got traction with the community. Corporate drive. Originally sponsored by Intel followed by IBM (RedHat) and the rest followed suit.
        • dredmorbius 29d ago
          Sauce?
          • doublerabbit 29d ago
            It's how any of these projects get shifted in distribution if not sponsored. > Kristian Høgsberg, I work at Intel in the graphics team in the Open Source Technology Center. I'm the founder and maintainer of the Wayland project. You either pitch or bring it with you. Demonstrate a tech demo and you're granted an engineer or two. It's how Amiga came to be, Steve Jobs with NeXT. And it appears you can no longer link anything from reddit without being asked to login and they've now nuked old.reddit If you have an account this thread has some very insightful comments. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1m0ztn/how_is_wayland_considered_a_community_effort_when/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1m0ztn/how_is_waylan...
        • dormento 29d ago
          Money, the "cure" to the hacker ethos.
        • throwaway84932 29d ago
          Wayland didn't start as a corporate project, and even if it had, you might be shocked to learn that the majority of contributions to projects like the Linux kernel and Mesa actually come from corporations, not individuals, right?
      • 0xbadcafebee 29d ago
        > I'll never understand how wayland got traction with the community There were only a few people willing to work on an alternative, and they didn't have to take a vote, so they just did what they wanted. Corporations and projects adopted it because they wanted something different, and it was the only other option. Now that we have AI, it will be much easier for genuine community alternatives to emerge, even if we have to battle over the legal ramifications. I for one am willing to go without "official support" to have software that doesn't suck.
      • rascul 29d ago
        They've been working on Wayland support for awhile now. https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap
    • farlight 29d ago
      They're already busy doing precisely that: https://lwn.net/Articles/1078942 https://lwn.net/Articles/1078942
  • tomstockmail 29d ago
    Xorg has had releases for years and will continue to do so. But as you can see in the announcement, enterprise users are the driving factor.
    • nazgulsenpai 29d ago
      Yeah, but they haven't added any features in years, from what I assumed to be a maintenance only/feature frozen stance in favor of Wayland, which is (primarily) why xlibre forked.
  • wing-_-nuts 29d ago
    >I'm not some anti-wayland zealot but you will pry xfce out of my cold dead hands. Hard same. I'm using xfce on my laptop with mint xfce edition, and it's a breath of fresh air. Everything just works how you'd expect it to work, and it gets out of your way. I tried sway a couple years ago and I lost count of the number of things I needed to go and find wayland specific workarounds for. I know things have gotten better since then, but I didn't see any benefit to switching and a whole lot of hassle.
    • ToyKeeper 29d ago
      X11 was 21 years old when the Wayland folks decided it was obsolete and needed to be replaced. Wayland is now about 18 years old. So, by Wayland standards, only 3 more years until it, too, will be obsolete and need to be replaced. That day can't come soon enough. :D Maybe the next one will actually be able to do the things I need a display system to do. Until then, at least we've still got X11. And Wayland has taught everyone all sorts of things about what not to do.
      • account42 28d ago
        We already had a similar situation with PulseAudio. Happily outlived that monstrosity.
        • ToyKeeper 28d ago
          Exactly. That was one of the first examples which came to mind for me too. I often still use just ALSA, but pipewire is at least pretty decent and mostly "just works". Unlike pulseaudio, which was kind of a plague on Linux audio for ages. On that note, for about 15 years, a funny thing kept happening. Any time anything on my Linux boxes broke, I'd trace the issue to its origin (bug hunting was literally my job, after all), and about half, maybe even two thirds of the time... it traced back to Lennart Poettering. That man was singlehandedly responsible for more than half the bugs I encountered for a decade and a half. It became so routine that I started practicing my impression of Severus Snape, so I could shake my fist at the sky and exclaim, "Poettering!!!" Anyway, Wayland feels like another one of those... where someone has to do it wrong and create a lot of trouble before someone else comes along to do it right. But that second part hasn't happened yet. So it's still in a broken state where half the stuff I do on a daily basis isn't even possible in Wayland.
  • elric 29d ago
    > you will pry xfce out of my cold dead hands AwesomeWM for me. I've essentially fused with it. Warts and all.
    • BeetleB 29d ago
      Does it not work on Wayland? I can't imagine life without AwesomeWM.
      • opan 29d ago
        Most stuff is fully rewritten/replaced. KDE and GNOME (maybe XFCE) are special cases. Sway acting as the Wayland version of i3wm is more what I expect. There was an early project to replicate AwesomeWM called WayCooler, but after a few years of trying to rewrite some major parts in Rust, the project died. There was a list of wlroots-based compositors at some point where most were replacements for the various old WMs.
      • elric 29d ago
        It doesn't. Or at least it didn't last I checked, maybe that's changed, but I doubt it. I've tried the Wayland alternatives, and they left such a bad taste in my mouth that I'd really rather never touch Wayland again. Sway in particular was an exercise in frustration, the damned thing refused to use the right keyboard layout no matter how hard I tried.