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It's all gambling. You can dress it to as having a social purpose, but that's not why most people do it - they want the numbers to go up. The stock market is ex

It's all gambling. You can dress it to as having a social purpose, but that's not why most people do it - they want the numbers to go up. The stock market is exactly the same - middle class gambling.

Dylan16807 29d ago
> You can dress it to as having a social purpose, but that's not why most people do it - they want the numbers to go up. Too cynical. This disqualifies basically anything you can do with money. If you put it in a bank to get interest you are solidly into the not-gambling end of the scale. And I don't think an index fund is that much more to the gambling side.
- hgomersall 29d ago
  Not really. The question is are you working for your money or are you hoping the money will provide free rent for you. If the latter, you're gambling. The only reason it's relatively risk free is because the system has been thoroughly stitched up in favour of the rent seekers.
  - Dylan16807 29d ago
    I'm confused by the ideas you're combining here. Do you think all forms of rent-seeking are gambling or just ones that involve money in a direct way? The only risk in a bank deposit is up at the "societal collapse" level. Are you really so extreme as to say that's gambling, and if so isn't having money at all a form of gambling?
    - deleted 29d ago
      [deleted]
    - hgomersall 29d ago
      The point is largely around expectation. Sure, the base case of putting money in a bank is very safe, but the interest on that is not. Factor in inflation and its pretty easy to get negative returns on bank deposits. If you fiddle with "investments" with the intent of making money without doing anything else, that's gambling. Sticking money in the bank with the hope that it's still there next time you come back to it is not really gambling. You're just doing the default thing.
      - Dylan16807 29d ago
        > Factor in inflation and its pretty easy to get negative returns on bank deposits. But that applies to having money at all. That can't be enough to call it gambling. > expectation, intent I understand your argument here, but I disagree. Shifting to the bank that offers the best rate is good management, not gambling. Understanding how interest works and being motivated by interest to do bog-standard money storage doesn't turn that storage into gambling. > without doing anything else I don't understand how this connects at all. Maybe it reflects badly on you if you want to turn money into free income, but that doesn't make it any more or less of a gamble. It's a totally different axis.
        TheOtherHobbes 28d ago
        >But that applies to having money at all. That can't be enough to call it gambling. It is, because there's no choice not to gamble. You have to make choices, and none of those choices are risk-free. The options are on a scale between low-risk negative-return and high-risk high-return. But the risk is never zero - not even in FDIC insured accounts - and there's an element of randomness involved in the outcomes. That's the point. There's no option to say "I have this store of value, and if I don't do anything with it it will retain its value forever." It won't. So you're forced into risk assessment and randomness, not just with money but with assets in general. This is the foundation of the economy. All non-trivial transactions are based on risk/reward estimates, and some parts of the economy can force risk and hazard on others. It's not just a casino you can never leave, it's a casino where the management use various tricks to siphon money from your assets into their pockets without giving you any agency over what happens.
        StilesCrisis 28d ago
        Government-backed bonds are the intended zero-risk option. You know exactly how much you will get and it is designed to track inflation (sorta). If you don't believe in that, precious metals are another way to go. I don't personally subscribe to that theory but that's the idea.
  - the_other 28d ago
    > Not really. The question is are you working for your money or are you hoping the money will provide free rent for you. If the latter, you're gambling. So putting money in my savings account is gambling, but investing in businesses is not. I suspect I misunderstand your point completely.
    - Dylan16807 28d ago
      They're saying that investing is your neighbor's business is gambling but starting your own business with the money isn't. But if it's the same risk I don't see why.
- Altern4tiveAcc 28d ago
  > If you put it in a bank to get interest you are solidly into the not-gambling end of the scale Isn't that a bet that your government won't devalue your currency fast enough?
  - danielmarkbruce 28d ago
    Inflation is a risk. A real, underlying, unavoidable risk. People with that risk aren't gambling. You are conflating risk with gambling. You can go through life without gambling, you can't go through life without risk.
nickjj 28d ago
> The stock market is exactly the same - middle class gambling. Our entire society is based on being forced to gamble. If you don't invest your money in some capacity then inflation will eat you alive.
- hgomersall 28d ago
  Why should having money ever give you a return on that? I ask that question in the context of moral philosophy, not a capitalist society. Surely there are better ways to determine how an individual should live that doesn't typically amount to emerging from a lucky orifice?
- RussianBot9580 28d ago
  @hgomersall: emerging from a lucky orifice is in fact the main thing in life if you think about it. After all, we are collectively a computer made of monkeys, and the function it is computing is natural selection. Kin selection is one aspect of it. Everything else - including money and innovation - is window dressing.
  - hgomersall 28d ago
    Sure, so should we, as society, reward it further by also providing more free money?
    - RussianBot9580 26d ago
      Well, society is welcome to try to stop them. These appeals usually go like this: we should stop providing more free money to the people who are strong enough to go and take it. Individually we are weaker, so let's stop this collectively. But someone needs to lead the collective. And just like that - you have created another strongman who will just take what he can. In other words: Communism.
danielmarkbruce 28d ago
Buying small pieces of businesses isn't gambling. The fact the price moves around a lot isn't the point of it, it's just a result of people buying/selling. In gambling, the risk itself is the point.

It's all gambling. You can dress it to as having a social purpose, but that's not why most people do it - they want the numbers to go up. The stock market is exactly the same - middle class gambling.

Dylan16807 29d ago

> You can dress it to as having a social purpose, but that's not why most people do it - they want the numbers to go up. Too cynical. This disqualifies basically anything you can do with money. If you put it in a bank to get interest you are solidly into the not-gambling end of the scale. And I don't think an index fund is that much more to the gambling side.

hgomersall 29d ago
Not really. The question is are you working for your money or are you hoping the money will provide free rent for you. If the latter, you're gambling. The only reason it's relatively risk free is because the system has been thoroughly stitched up in favour of the rent seekers.
- Dylan16807 29d ago
  I'm confused by the ideas you're combining here. Do you think all forms of rent-seeking are gambling or just ones that involve money in a direct way? The only risk in a bank deposit is up at the "societal collapse" level. Are you really so extreme as to say that's gambling, and if so isn't having money at all a form of gambling?
  - deleted 29d ago
    [deleted]
  - hgomersall 29d ago
    The point is largely around expectation. Sure, the base case of putting money in a bank is very safe, but the interest on that is not. Factor in inflation and its pretty easy to get negative returns on bank deposits. If you fiddle with "investments" with the intent of making money without doing anything else, that's gambling. Sticking money in the bank with the hope that it's still there next time you come back to it is not really gambling. You're just doing the default thing.
    - Dylan16807 29d ago
      > Factor in inflation and its pretty easy to get negative returns on bank deposits. But that applies to having money at all. That can't be enough to call it gambling. > expectation, intent I understand your argument here, but I disagree. Shifting to the bank that offers the best rate is good management, not gambling. Understanding how interest works and being motivated by interest to do bog-standard money storage doesn't turn that storage into gambling. > without doing anything else I don't understand how this connects at all. Maybe it reflects badly on you if you want to turn money into free income, but that doesn't make it any more or less of a gamble. It's a totally different axis.
      - TheOtherHobbes 28d ago
        >But that applies to having money at all. That can't be enough to call it gambling. It is, because there's no choice not to gamble. You have to make choices, and none of those choices are risk-free. The options are on a scale between low-risk negative-return and high-risk high-return. But the risk is never zero - not even in FDIC insured accounts - and there's an element of randomness involved in the outcomes. That's the point. There's no option to say "I have this store of value, and if I don't do anything with it it will retain its value forever." It won't. So you're forced into risk assessment and randomness, not just with money but with assets in general. This is the foundation of the economy. All non-trivial transactions are based on risk/reward estimates, and some parts of the economy can force risk and hazard on others. It's not just a casino you can never leave, it's a casino where the management use various tricks to siphon money from your assets into their pockets without giving you any agency over what happens.
        StilesCrisis 28d ago
        Government-backed bonds are the intended zero-risk option. You know exactly how much you will get and it is designed to track inflation (sorta). If you don't believe in that, precious metals are another way to go. I don't personally subscribe to that theory but that's the idea.
- the_other 28d ago
  > Not really. The question is are you working for your money or are you hoping the money will provide free rent for you. If the latter, you're gambling. So putting money in my savings account is gambling, but investing in businesses is not. I suspect I misunderstand your point completely.
  - Dylan16807 28d ago
    They're saying that investing is your neighbor's business is gambling but starting your own business with the money isn't. But if it's the same risk I don't see why.
Altern4tiveAcc 28d ago
> If you put it in a bank to get interest you are solidly into the not-gambling end of the scale Isn't that a bet that your government won't devalue your currency fast enough?
- danielmarkbruce 28d ago
  Inflation is a risk. A real, underlying, unavoidable risk. People with that risk aren't gambling. You are conflating risk with gambling. You can go through life without gambling, you can't go through life without risk.

nickjj 28d ago

> The stock market is exactly the same - middle class gambling. Our entire society is based on being forced to gamble. If you don't invest your money in some capacity then inflation will eat you alive.

hgomersall 28d ago
Why should having money ever give you a return on that? I ask that question in the context of moral philosophy, not a capitalist society. Surely there are better ways to determine how an individual should live that doesn't typically amount to emerging from a lucky orifice?
RussianBot9580 28d ago
@hgomersall: emerging from a lucky orifice is in fact the main thing in life if you think about it. After all, we are collectively a computer made of monkeys, and the function it is computing is natural selection. Kin selection is one aspect of it. Everything else - including money and innovation - is window dressing.
- hgomersall 28d ago
  Sure, so should we, as society, reward it further by also providing more free money?
  - RussianBot9580 26d ago
    Well, society is welcome to try to stop them. These appeals usually go like this: we should stop providing more free money to the people who are strong enough to go and take it. Individually we are weaker, so let's stop this collectively. But someone needs to lead the collective. And just like that - you have created another strongman who will just take what he can. In other words: Communism.

danielmarkbruce 28d ago

Buying small pieces of businesses isn't gambling. The fact the price moves around a lot isn't the point of it, it's just a result of people buying/selling. In gambling, the risk itself is the point.