7 ms·

That doesn’t solve brake and tire particles. Although…rail might solve those?

cousinbryce 29d ago
https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-worse-exhaust-emissions https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-... Rail, bike, even busses are better. Cars are uniquely bad transportation in urban environments
- mhandley 29d ago
  Do the numbers in that article make sense? 5.8g/km for tyre wear? Generally my tyres last maybe 25000 miles. So at that rate they would lose 230kg. Seems high.
  - danparsonson 29d ago
    "Non-exhaust emissions (NEE) are particles released into the air from brake wear, tyre wear, road surface wear and resuspension of road dust during on-road vehicle usage." I guess they mean total non-exhaust particulates.
  - lazide 29d ago
    They might be counting trucks?
mhandley 29d ago
Tyre, no, but regen braking almost eliminates brake particles at the speeds I drive in London. But mostly I take the train. Unfortunately the highest I measured on my particulate sensor is not near the roads, but in the tube.
jillesvangurp 29d ago
EVs use regenerative braking. So they hardly produce any brake particulates. And the tire particulates are heavy so they don't stay airborn for nearly as long. At low speeds, tires don't wear out as quickly. Europe has quite a few cities where traffic is increasingly discouraged from going to the inner cities. Cities like Paris and London are much transformed from what they used to be and it shows in the health statistics. It's not just the particulates but also nitrous oxides (nox) produced by combustion engines. Nox is correlated with lots of health issues. Take it away and you see lower rates of chronic lung issues, cancer, development issues with kids, etc. But yes, tires are also an issue. But a fairly minor one to anything coming out of a combustion engine. Mass transit indeed is nice in big cities. Removes the need for taking the car.
- 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 29d ago
  There is a generator at the end of my street in a shipping container sized metal box, it also has a mini office and loo, and is used by the construction workers digging holes in the road. It has company spiel written on the side, promoting the box's environmental credentials, including the punchline: 'Zero NOX when generator not in use'. No shit Sherlock.
  - testing22321 29d ago
    I look forward to the day coke is marketed as “zero fat!”
    - mrguyorama 28d ago
      Why are you still looking? During the 90s "Fat is evil" craze, all yogurt was replaced with "Fat free" yogurt that had 100 extra calories worth of sugar. The yogurt aisle in the US is still primarily made up of this garbage product category which exists based on utter falsehoods pushed by the sugar industry. 30 years later and we are still constrained by what ignorant fad chasers in the 90s did.
  - throwaway89201 29d ago
    Might instead refer to a start-stop / battery backup kind of system, where idling-but-on doesn't burn any fuel, but sudden loads can still be serviced.
masklinn 29d ago
> That doesn’t solve brake and tire particles. Regen braking means significantly less brake dust, especially at city speeds and with blended braking. > Although…rail might solve those? Trains still have brakes. Some can regen brake but because they usually don’t have batteries they need the rail or overhead gantry to support inputs. But on a passenger-mile basis, I expect an electric train produces essentially no particulates compared to a car, even a light rail on tyres. I do not however have numbers.
- jurip 29d ago
  I believe at least subways tend to have lousy air: https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/subway-air-pollution-disproportionately-impacts-new-york-citys-minority-and-low-income https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/subway-air-pollution-dispro... But I expect it's much better in open-air rail systems.
  - masklinn 29d ago
    I was thinking open-air yes, tunnels do indeed have major issue. With pollutant concentrations, road tunnels are the same (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1361920920306659 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13619...). For all that I did not care for them originally this is probably something full-height platform screen doors help with, assuming the trains themselves are also filtered that would keep the pollutants clear of drivers and users, although it does not exactly resolve the question of managing their presence in the tunnels themselves (and track / tunnel maintenance personnel should probably already be wearing respirators if not full breathing apparatus), and I could see things get pretty dire in case of breakdowns.
    - rsynnott 28d ago
      Impossible to retrofit, of course, but what helps more are big tunnels. Modern ~9m diameter single tunnel systems are a lot better for this than old 3.5m diameter double tunnel systems.
- Symbiote 29d ago

https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-worse-exhaust-emissions https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-... Rail, bike, even busses are better. Cars are uniquely bad transportation in urban environments

mhandley 29d ago
Do the numbers in that article make sense? 5.8g/km for tyre wear? Generally my tyres last maybe 25000 miles. So at that rate they would lose 230kg. Seems high.
- danparsonson 29d ago
  "Non-exhaust emissions (NEE) are particles released into the air from brake wear, tyre wear, road surface wear and resuspension of road dust during on-road vehicle usage." I guess they mean total non-exhaust particulates.
- lazide 29d ago
  They might be counting trucks?

mhandley 29d ago

Tyre, no, but regen braking almost eliminates brake particles at the speeds I drive in London. But mostly I take the train. Unfortunately the highest I measured on my particulate sensor is not near the roads, but in the tube.

jillesvangurp 29d ago

EVs use regenerative braking. So they hardly produce any brake particulates. And the tire particulates are heavy so they don't stay airborn for nearly as long. At low speeds, tires don't wear out as quickly. Europe has quite a few cities where traffic is increasingly discouraged from going to the inner cities. Cities like Paris and London are much transformed from what they used to be and it shows in the health statistics. It's not just the particulates but also nitrous oxides (nox) produced by combustion engines. Nox is correlated with lots of health issues. Take it away and you see lower rates of chronic lung issues, cancer, development issues with kids, etc. But yes, tires are also an issue. But a fairly minor one to anything coming out of a combustion engine. Mass transit indeed is nice in big cities. Removes the need for taking the car.

6LLvveMx2koXfwn 29d ago
There is a generator at the end of my street in a shipping container sized metal box, it also has a mini office and loo, and is used by the construction workers digging holes in the road. It has company spiel written on the side, promoting the box's environmental credentials, including the punchline: 'Zero NOX when generator not in use'. No shit Sherlock.
- testing22321 29d ago
  I look forward to the day coke is marketed as “zero fat!”
  - mrguyorama 28d ago
    Why are you still looking? During the 90s "Fat is evil" craze, all yogurt was replaced with "Fat free" yogurt that had 100 extra calories worth of sugar. The yogurt aisle in the US is still primarily made up of this garbage product category which exists based on utter falsehoods pushed by the sugar industry. 30 years later and we are still constrained by what ignorant fad chasers in the 90s did.
- throwaway89201 29d ago
  Might instead refer to a start-stop / battery backup kind of system, where idling-but-on doesn't burn any fuel, but sudden loads can still be serviced.

masklinn 29d ago

> That doesn’t solve brake and tire particles. Regen braking means significantly less brake dust, especially at city speeds and with blended braking. > Although…rail might solve those? Trains still have brakes. Some can regen brake but because they usually don’t have batteries they need the rail or overhead gantry to support inputs. But on a passenger-mile basis, I expect an electric train produces essentially no particulates compared to a car, even a light rail on tyres. I do not however have numbers.

jurip 29d ago
I believe at least subways tend to have lousy air: https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/subway-air-pollution-disproportionately-impacts-new-york-citys-minority-and-low-income https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/subway-air-pollution-dispro... But I expect it's much better in open-air rail systems.
- masklinn 29d ago
  I was thinking open-air yes, tunnels do indeed have major issue. With pollutant concentrations, road tunnels are the same (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1361920920306659 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13619...). For all that I did not care for them originally this is probably something full-height platform screen doors help with, assuming the trains themselves are also filtered that would keep the pollutants clear of drivers and users, although it does not exactly resolve the question of managing their presence in the tunnels themselves (and track / tunnel maintenance personnel should probably already be wearing respirators if not full breathing apparatus), and I could see things get pretty dire in case of breakdowns.
  - rsynnott 28d ago
    Impossible to retrofit, of course, but what helps more are big tunnels. Modern ~9m diameter single tunnel systems are a lot better for this than old 3.5m diameter double tunnel systems.
Symbiote 29d ago