6 ms·

The article's definition of consciousness is precise, but it's not what people are referring to in most cases where the word "consciousness" is used. Of course,

The article's definition of consciousness is precise, but it's not what people are referring to in most cases where the word "consciousness" is used. Of course, a word can have multiple definitions. But colloquially, when people say consciousness, we usually mean the thing that goes away when we sleep or are anesthetized. I don't think there's a much better way to define that. The contrast between the wakeful and non-wakeful state as oneself experiences from the inside is precisely what defines consciousness in the colloquial sense. It seems to be a self-defining concept because I can't even define what "experiences" means without thinking about the wakeful/non-wakeful contrast phenomena that is consciousness, and "experiences" was supposed to be a part of the definition of "consciousness" one sentence ago.

JK-Swizzle 1mo ago
I am unsure as to what you are trying to say here. It reads to me as “the word the article discusses has a more popular homonym, but they are clearly not talking about that”.
- txrx0000 1mo ago
  I'm thinking out loud and pointing out the difference to avoid confusion, and also trying to invite discussion around the colloquial def, because I think the colloquial def is the most important/useful one.
sillywabbit 1mo ago
Anesthesia is a rather different state than sleep.
- api 1mo ago
  I had some serious surgery a few years ago and paid attention when I went under to see if I could recall anything. Nope. You don’t exist for that time. Anesthesiologist counts down 10, 9, 8, 7, and then I was teleported to the recovery bed. I consider it incredibly weird and very unlike sleep. Consciousness is off, instantly, then back.
  - boxed 1mo ago
    Well... memory is off at least.
    - api 1mo ago
      Ahh, yes, the cosmic horror hypothesis about how anesthesia works. You can't move and experience everything but remember nothing. But hey, I don't have cancer anymore. So if I had to endure four hours of agony that I don't remember, I'll take it.
      - boxed 1mo ago
        Well we do know you can't feel pain, because we've actually done the MRI studies to confirm. Which makes me feel a lot better personally. But I also have a doctor friend who tells me how removing my appendix actually worked: I go under. Then they take out the appendix. Then they wake me so that I can, with help, move from the operating table to the wheeled bed. This part is not a part of my memory, but people can talk to me and I can get down from the table and onto the bed (again, with help). So I'd say there's some middle ground here.
  - deleted 1mo ago
    [deleted]
- txrx0000 1mo ago
  When observed by a different conscious being, yes. But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. I think that distinction matters because strictly speaking, oneself only has access to one's own consciousness, and that defines one's own understanding of the word "consciousness". It's not possible for me to be you after all, and whatever inferences I make about other people being conscious is based on the fact that I experience my consciousness, and you are similar to me in some specific way (such as being, presumably, a human), therefore you must be conscious. Of course, I'm taking a materialist stance here but that's what's practical to talk about anyway.
  - georgemcbay 1mo ago
    > But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar Having been under general anesthesia once the feeling of just completely not existing for the time period I was under felt very different than sleep does to me.
    - txrx0000 1mo ago
      Perhaps it's because I almost never dream. Sleep feels almost just as dead to me. Case in point, I think we're probably talking about slightly different phenomena even when we talk about the same linguistic definition of consciousness. Kind of like how my idea of an "apple" is based on all of the apples I've seen in the past and instances where I've used the word or saw it being used by others, whereas your idea of "apple" is based on your experiences. They must be mostly similar in information content or we wouldn't be able to communicate at all, but the self-or-other distinction is important.
  - munificent 1mo ago
    > But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. Have you been anesthetized before? Different forms are very different, but none of them feel like sleep, at all. General anesthesia feels like a time simply skipped forward. Like a chunk of your memory tape was cut out completely. Twilight sedation feels like you temporarily inhabited someone else's body but the experience was so strange that you blocked out almost all of the memory. Sleeping and dreaming is totally different.
XorNot 1mo ago
The more interesting aspect of that is that there's an element of recall implicit in that though: if someone was active, moving around and interacting according to observers then whether they were conscious during that time is heavily informed by whether they remember it later. Quite where that line exists then is very fuzzy because while for example I feel conscious while I'm typing this, it's also clearly possible I could but then have no memory of it.
lostmsu 1mo ago
Why only as oneself experiences? I can easily tell if a horse is conscious or not. The whole matter is rather simple IMO. Let's say it's variability (number of distinct if you prefer discrete) of stable responses to external stimuli.
adolph 1mo ago
> when people say consciousness, we usually mean the thing that goes away when we sleep or are anesthetized. How is dreaming during sleep different from consciousness when awake?
- txrx0000 1mo ago
  It feels very different to me. I have a dream perhaps once a year, and it's nowhere near as vivid as real experiences. Dreams don't have much color, shape, or audio, just a blurry mess where I could barely make out things resembling objects or people. There is no way to mistake that with reality.
IAmBroom 29d ago
> But colloquially, when people say consciousness, we usually mean And by "we", you mean "you". If I read an article about the nature of "consciousness", I assume it means "as opposed to being a rock or a twig". N=2; two definitions.
bossyTeacher 28d ago
> But colloquially, when people say consciousness, we usually mean the thing that goes away when we sleep or are anesthetized. Sounds like attention rather than consciousness. You lose your attention.

JK-Swizzle 1mo ago

I am unsure as to what you are trying to say here. It reads to me as “the word the article discusses has a more popular homonym, but they are clearly not talking about that”.

txrx0000 1mo ago
I'm thinking out loud and pointing out the difference to avoid confusion, and also trying to invite discussion around the colloquial def, because I think the colloquial def is the most important/useful one.

sillywabbit 1mo ago

Anesthesia is a rather different state than sleep.

api 1mo ago
I had some serious surgery a few years ago and paid attention when I went under to see if I could recall anything. Nope. You don’t exist for that time. Anesthesiologist counts down 10, 9, 8, 7, and then I was teleported to the recovery bed. I consider it incredibly weird and very unlike sleep. Consciousness is off, instantly, then back.
- boxed 1mo ago
  Well... memory is off at least.
  - api 1mo ago
    Ahh, yes, the cosmic horror hypothesis about how anesthesia works. You can't move and experience everything but remember nothing. But hey, I don't have cancer anymore. So if I had to endure four hours of agony that I don't remember, I'll take it.
    - boxed 1mo ago
      Well we do know you can't feel pain, because we've actually done the MRI studies to confirm. Which makes me feel a lot better personally. But I also have a doctor friend who tells me how removing my appendix actually worked: I go under. Then they take out the appendix. Then they wake me so that I can, with help, move from the operating table to the wheeled bed. This part is not a part of my memory, but people can talk to me and I can get down from the table and onto the bed (again, with help). So I'd say there's some middle ground here.
- deleted 1mo ago
  [deleted]
txrx0000 1mo ago
When observed by a different conscious being, yes. But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. I think that distinction matters because strictly speaking, oneself only has access to one's own consciousness, and that defines one's own understanding of the word "consciousness". It's not possible for me to be you after all, and whatever inferences I make about other people being conscious is based on the fact that I experience my consciousness, and you are similar to me in some specific way (such as being, presumably, a human), therefore you must be conscious. Of course, I'm taking a materialist stance here but that's what's practical to talk about anyway.
- georgemcbay 1mo ago
  > But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar Having been under general anesthesia once the feeling of just completely not existing for the time period I was under felt very different than sleep does to me.
  - txrx0000 1mo ago
    Perhaps it's because I almost never dream. Sleep feels almost just as dead to me. Case in point, I think we're probably talking about slightly different phenomena even when we talk about the same linguistic definition of consciousness. Kind of like how my idea of an "apple" is based on all of the apples I've seen in the past and instances where I've used the word or saw it being used by others, whereas your idea of "apple" is based on your experiences. They must be mostly similar in information content or we wouldn't be able to communicate at all, but the self-or-other distinction is important.
- munificent 1mo ago
  > But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. Have you been anesthetized before? Different forms are very different, but none of them feel like sleep, at all. General anesthesia feels like a time simply skipped forward. Like a chunk of your memory tape was cut out completely. Twilight sedation feels like you temporarily inhabited someone else's body but the experience was so strange that you blocked out almost all of the memory. Sleeping and dreaming is totally different.

XorNot 1mo ago

The more interesting aspect of that is that there's an element of recall implicit in that though: if someone was active, moving around and interacting according to observers then whether they were conscious during that time is heavily informed by whether they remember it later. Quite where that line exists then is very fuzzy because while for example I feel conscious while I'm typing this, it's also clearly possible I could but then have no memory of it.

lostmsu 1mo ago

Why only as oneself experiences? I can easily tell if a horse is conscious or not. The whole matter is rather simple IMO. Let's say it's variability (number of distinct if you prefer discrete) of stable responses to external stimuli.

adolph 1mo ago

> when people say consciousness, we usually mean the thing that goes away when we sleep or are anesthetized. How is dreaming during sleep different from consciousness when awake?

txrx0000 1mo ago
It feels very different to me. I have a dream perhaps once a year, and it's nowhere near as vivid as real experiences. Dreams don't have much color, shape, or audio, just a blurry mess where I could barely make out things resembling objects or people. There is no way to mistake that with reality.

IAmBroom 29d ago

> But colloquially, when people say consciousness, we usually mean And by "we", you mean "you". If I read an article about the nature of "consciousness", I assume it means "as opposed to being a rock or a twig". N=2; two definitions.

bossyTeacher 28d ago

> But colloquially, when people say consciousness, we usually mean the thing that goes away when we sleep or are anesthetized. Sounds like attention rather than consciousness. You lose your attention.