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Honest question: what are the actual concrete issues where Amazon is shirking responsibility they would have otherwise had? Was there a specific court case wher

by EugeneG 1mo ago

Honest question: what are the actual concrete issues where Amazon is shirking responsibility they would have otherwise had? Was there a specific court case where Amazon didn't pay what it would have otherwise? A workplace injury that would have been covered but otherwise wasn't? If these exist, are they systemic - i.e., does it happen more often here than it does with UPS or FedEx delivery workers? There are insinuations here, and a good video, but it would be good to have actual examples and then an actual demonstration of a pattern of harm, before we introduce new rules that are likely going to make deliveries more expensive. I understand that a YouTube video isn't a policy document... and I don't expect it to have all of these things. But as a citizen, I do expect - that somewhere - there should be an actual policy document that outlines the facts.

philipallstar 1mo ago
I think you're asking the wrong questions of someone like this. The point is to get power, to make sure you are well looked after. Give him more power to make your life better.
Xirdus 1mo ago
The actual problem is not that Amazon breaks any rules, but that the rules are so soft that even Amazon doesn't break them. But explaining it to an average worker doesn't work. Blaming specific companies and specific billionaires for systemic problems works much better for building support - that's why the politician in the video does the latter.
- EugeneG 1mo ago
  Ok but I expect more from my government than "here's youtube video; trust me bro - you're an average worker, you won't get it"
  - Xirdus 1mo ago
    Why do you expect politicians to be suboptimal at the job of a politician (gaining support)? This kind of "trust me bro" video is exactly what a perfectly spherical politician in a vacuum should be coming up with. If you don't want politicians in the government, stop voting for them!
chii 1mo ago
The people making propaganda (and yes, this is propaganda) knows that people are not rational but emotional. The video targets emotions - that amazon shirks responsibility is an emotional appeal. The hidden assumption is that there is some sort of responsibility that amazon ought to have, and that by shirking it, they're doing you harm. Instead of facts, they're listing things that give viewer a bad gut reaction like injury and accidents. The idea is already baked into the premise of the video, rather than propose a neutral question to the viewer; ala, at what level are a client responsible for the contractor's health and wellbeing. Why don't they ask this for tradies and plumbers?
- DangitBobby 1mo ago
  Yeah why don't we make sure we fix the whole world at once and if we can't give up completely? Ask yourself, if they aren't fixing your favorite problem, are they really fixing any problem at all? Bonus points if you can maintain a vaneer of rationality.
- FatherOfCurses 1mo ago
  Equating Amazon with a general home construction contractor is quite a stretch.
- mutinyy 1mo ago
  We don't need to ask at what level are clients responsible for contractors health, wellbeing, and (most importantly, which you missed) negligent actions. These are all well established law. What needs discussion is if we should plug the loopholes Amazon uses to treat these independent contractors as employees while avoiding exposing their deep pockets to lawsuits. Either they treat them like contractors or they assume responsibility for their actions, but you can't have it both ways.
stackskipton 1mo ago
Here is the problem, Amazon is not actually driving most of "Amazon" trucks you see the on the road. They are likely being driven and owned by "Joes Delivery Company LLC". If you look at the bottom of the truck, you will generally see the ACTUAL owner name. So if anything happens to worker or public is harmed, Joes Delivery Company is cutout fall person. So if worker or public sues or fined, the company folds, the assets sold off to Joes Delivery Company, the part deus" and it starts all over again. This act is basically saying "Nope, we are considering them Amazon employees, so we can sue or fine Amazon for their actions regardless of name on employees paycheck or car registered owner." Also, if they combined into single company, it makes union actions much easier. This happens with FedEx/UPS as well.
- dartharva 1mo ago
  So, if I understand correctly, does New York want Amazon to not hand over jobs to local small businesses and just instead operate their own fleets? Are they pushing for higher consolidation (and eventual power) to Amazon?
  - ncallaway 1mo ago
    Amazon has already consolidated that power. They’ve just done it in a way where they are able to shirk some liability and maintenance costs onto their employees. They’ve problem is that most of these are not really small businesses, in the same way that most Uber drivers aren’t really a small business. They don’t drive a generic truck, they drive an Amazon branded truck, often an Amazon financed truck, often a vehicle specific to Amazon deliveries. Can they use the Amazon-truck they financed from Amazon for non-Amazon deliveries?
    - dartharva 1mo ago
      > Can they use the Amazon-truck they financed from Amazon for non-Amazon deliveries? I don't know, can they not? If that is the case then it's definitely problematic.
      - 1mo ago
FatherOfCurses 1mo ago
Are you saying that there is a lack of easily accessible information about how Amazon drivers are overworked compared to UPS/Fedex drivers?
runako 1mo ago
The bill[1], which is named in the video, is available on the public Internet. 1 - https://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=7879110&GUID=BDDD32F1-1178-492D-80F2-205845356FD2 https://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=7...

by EugeneG 1mo ago

philipallstar 1mo ago

I think you're asking the wrong questions of someone like this. The point is to get power, to make sure you are well looked after. Give him more power to make your life better.

Xirdus 1mo ago

The actual problem is not that Amazon breaks any rules, but that the rules are so soft that even Amazon doesn't break them. But explaining it to an average worker doesn't work. Blaming specific companies and specific billionaires for systemic problems works much better for building support - that's why the politician in the video does the latter.

EugeneG 1mo ago
Ok but I expect more from my government than "here's youtube video; trust me bro - you're an average worker, you won't get it"
- Xirdus 1mo ago
  Why do you expect politicians to be suboptimal at the job of a politician (gaining support)? This kind of "trust me bro" video is exactly what a perfectly spherical politician in a vacuum should be coming up with. If you don't want politicians in the government, stop voting for them!

chii 1mo ago

The people making propaganda (and yes, this is propaganda) knows that people are not rational but emotional. The video targets emotions - that amazon shirks responsibility is an emotional appeal. The hidden assumption is that there is some sort of responsibility that amazon ought to have, and that by shirking it, they're doing you harm. Instead of facts, they're listing things that give viewer a bad gut reaction like injury and accidents. The idea is already baked into the premise of the video, rather than propose a neutral question to the viewer; ala, at what level are a client responsible for the contractor's health and wellbeing. Why don't they ask this for tradies and plumbers?

DangitBobby 1mo ago
Yeah why don't we make sure we fix the whole world at once and if we can't give up completely? Ask yourself, if they aren't fixing your favorite problem, are they really fixing any problem at all? Bonus points if you can maintain a vaneer of rationality.
FatherOfCurses 1mo ago
Equating Amazon with a general home construction contractor is quite a stretch.
mutinyy 1mo ago
We don't need to ask at what level are clients responsible for contractors health, wellbeing, and (most importantly, which you missed) negligent actions. These are all well established law. What needs discussion is if we should plug the loopholes Amazon uses to treat these independent contractors as employees while avoiding exposing their deep pockets to lawsuits. Either they treat them like contractors or they assume responsibility for their actions, but you can't have it both ways.

stackskipton 1mo ago

Here is the problem, Amazon is not actually driving most of "Amazon" trucks you see the on the road. They are likely being driven and owned by "Joes Delivery Company LLC". If you look at the bottom of the truck, you will generally see the ACTUAL owner name. So if anything happens to worker or public is harmed, Joes Delivery Company is cutout fall person. So if worker or public sues or fined, the company folds, the assets sold off to Joes Delivery Company, the part deus" and it starts all over again. This act is basically saying "Nope, we are considering them Amazon employees, so we can sue or fine Amazon for their actions regardless of name on employees paycheck or car registered owner." Also, if they combined into single company, it makes union actions much easier. This happens with FedEx/UPS as well.

dartharva 1mo ago
So, if I understand correctly, does New York want Amazon to not hand over jobs to local small businesses and just instead operate their own fleets? Are they pushing for higher consolidation (and eventual power) to Amazon?
- ncallaway 1mo ago
  Amazon has already consolidated that power. They’ve just done it in a way where they are able to shirk some liability and maintenance costs onto their employees. They’ve problem is that most of these are not really small businesses, in the same way that most Uber drivers aren’t really a small business. They don’t drive a generic truck, they drive an Amazon branded truck, often an Amazon financed truck, often a vehicle specific to Amazon deliveries. Can they use the Amazon-truck they financed from Amazon for non-Amazon deliveries?
  - dartharva 1mo ago
    > Can they use the Amazon-truck they financed from Amazon for non-Amazon deliveries? I don't know, can they not? If that is the case then it's definitely problematic.
    - 1mo ago

FatherOfCurses 1mo ago

Are you saying that there is a lack of easily accessible information about how Amazon drivers are overworked compared to UPS/Fedex drivers?

runako 1mo ago

The bill[1], which is named in the video, is available on the public Internet. 1 - https://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=7879110&GUID=BDDD32F1-1178-492D-80F2-205845356FD2 https://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=7...