13 ms·

the article was a bit long for me to read, but when i hear "mittelstand", i think "inherited wealth", regulatory capture leading to gatekeepting of access to th

by gyulai 1mo ago

the article was a bit long for me to read, but when i hear "mittelstand", i think "inherited wealth", regulatory capture leading to gatekeepting of access to the trades and crafts, and employees that are getting paid less than they would in larger industries in exchange for lofty blah blah about family friendliness (sitting in a weird contrast with crazy levels of bean counting when it comes to, e.g., flexible working time and vacation entitlements).

grebc 1mo ago
Lol.
camillomiller 1mo ago
[flagged]
- gyulai 1mo ago
  It was providing context which some people may find useful. The article, rather than being a strictly historical treatise, is taking the bait to propagate some narratives about the motivations behind why these companies do business the way they do. Reframe "family values" as "paying less" and see where you land on a critical appraisal. Reframe "rooted in a region" as follows: Being a relatively large fish in a relatively small pond is often strategically preferable to being a relatively small fish in a relatively big pond, if your strategy involves regulatory capture of local government and the formation of a cartel with the handful of other Mittelstand employers in a region that otherwise doesn't have much going on. Reframe "excellence in crafts" as "keeping out the competition". I've seen all of these bullshit narratives getting spun, and all of these mechanisms at play, over the last 7 years, having lived in two separate such regions in Germany. It is a scent of bullshit that is very well known to me. When I see other people in danger of being misled, I will say something, just as I will say "watch out", when I see someone about to get hit by a car.
  - RandomLensman 1mo ago
    Well, people could move to places with higher wages (e.g., cities), no? Being in a place where you could help shape local politics seems like a good move, no? What is the issue with "excellence in craft" as keeping "out the competion"? Why would anyone not want to beat the competion?
    - gyulai 1mo ago
      > people could move to places with higher wages (e.g., cities), no? ...well, often times, when you have a family and real estate in a region, it might be inopportune to do that, and my contention is that some employers capitalize on that immobility by offering worse terms. > Being in a place where you could help shape local politics seems like a good move, no? Sure. If you want to buy a forest, have your buddy the mayor re-zone it as industrial, and build a logistics hub there, it's a good move. Not so good, if you're the company from out of town that wants to move in and do the same thing, to compete with the incumbent (and you aren't friends with the mayor). Not so good, if you kind of liked the forest. > What is the issue with "excellence in craft" as keeping "out the competion"? Why would anyone not want to beat the competion? You can beat the competition by being a plumber who offers better plumbing at lower prices. Or the better plumbing and lower prices might be from the plumber who just moved here from Turkey. And then you can beat that would-be competition through regulatory capture by having your buddies in politics pass a law to assert that the craftsmanship of the Turkish feller is somehow inferior to yours and they aren't allowed to work as a plumber.
      - RandomLensman 1mo ago
        Not wanting to move might have costs. Yes, local integration has value, but also means you had to stick around to get there - comes with a cost. And local people show plenty ability to protect things/stop building etc. The regulations on Handwerk are so old, not sure how you could put that on the Mittelstand.
        gyulai 1mo ago
        > The regulations on Handwerk are so old, not sure how you could put that on the Mittelstand. Exactly. These regulations stem from the same chapter of history as when kings used to grant monopolies (to the East India company, and similar) in their respective industries. It didn't cost the king anything and it did a political favour to those companies, which might then reciprocate. Or the monopoly might have been the king's quid-pro-quo for some favour that the company had done him. Monopolies are now widely recognized as bad. The monopoly didn't cost the king anything, but the cost was born by all consumers. In the centuries that passed, some countries with a more libertarian bend got rid of the guilds and their privileges, or never started them in the first place. In other countries (notably the "old world"), these constituencies have remained politically strong enough over all those centuries to still be around now. So, this romanticizing about the "proud old tradition" is completely the wrong reaction. There are many things with an "old tradition" where it would seem quite odd if a given country hadn't gotten rid of it (like collective punishment, or whatever; the examples are easy to think of). So something being old is neither here nor there. > Yes, local integration has value, but also means you had to stick around to get there - comes with a cost. Not sure if you're implying that regulatory capture of local government is some kind of just reward for "sticking around." If so, I disagree.

by gyulai 1mo ago

grebc 1mo ago

Lol.

camillomiller 1mo ago

[flagged]

gyulai 1mo ago
It was providing context which some people may find useful. The article, rather than being a strictly historical treatise, is taking the bait to propagate some narratives about the motivations behind why these companies do business the way they do. Reframe "family values" as "paying less" and see where you land on a critical appraisal. Reframe "rooted in a region" as follows: Being a relatively large fish in a relatively small pond is often strategically preferable to being a relatively small fish in a relatively big pond, if your strategy involves regulatory capture of local government and the formation of a cartel with the handful of other Mittelstand employers in a region that otherwise doesn't have much going on. Reframe "excellence in crafts" as "keeping out the competition". I've seen all of these bullshit narratives getting spun, and all of these mechanisms at play, over the last 7 years, having lived in two separate such regions in Germany. It is a scent of bullshit that is very well known to me. When I see other people in danger of being misled, I will say something, just as I will say "watch out", when I see someone about to get hit by a car.
- RandomLensman 1mo ago
  Well, people could move to places with higher wages (e.g., cities), no? Being in a place where you could help shape local politics seems like a good move, no? What is the issue with "excellence in craft" as keeping "out the competion"? Why would anyone not want to beat the competion?
  - gyulai 1mo ago
    > people could move to places with higher wages (e.g., cities), no? ...well, often times, when you have a family and real estate in a region, it might be inopportune to do that, and my contention is that some employers capitalize on that immobility by offering worse terms. > Being in a place where you could help shape local politics seems like a good move, no? Sure. If you want to buy a forest, have your buddy the mayor re-zone it as industrial, and build a logistics hub there, it's a good move. Not so good, if you're the company from out of town that wants to move in and do the same thing, to compete with the incumbent (and you aren't friends with the mayor). Not so good, if you kind of liked the forest. > What is the issue with "excellence in craft" as keeping "out the competion"? Why would anyone not want to beat the competion? You can beat the competition by being a plumber who offers better plumbing at lower prices. Or the better plumbing and lower prices might be from the plumber who just moved here from Turkey. And then you can beat that would-be competition through regulatory capture by having your buddies in politics pass a law to assert that the craftsmanship of the Turkish feller is somehow inferior to yours and they aren't allowed to work as a plumber.
    - RandomLensman 1mo ago
      Not wanting to move might have costs. Yes, local integration has value, but also means you had to stick around to get there - comes with a cost. And local people show plenty ability to protect things/stop building etc. The regulations on Handwerk are so old, not sure how you could put that on the Mittelstand.
      - gyulai 1mo ago
        > The regulations on Handwerk are so old, not sure how you could put that on the Mittelstand. Exactly. These regulations stem from the same chapter of history as when kings used to grant monopolies (to the East India company, and similar) in their respective industries. It didn't cost the king anything and it did a political favour to those companies, which might then reciprocate. Or the monopoly might have been the king's quid-pro-quo for some favour that the company had done him. Monopolies are now widely recognized as bad. The monopoly didn't cost the king anything, but the cost was born by all consumers. In the centuries that passed, some countries with a more libertarian bend got rid of the guilds and their privileges, or never started them in the first place. In other countries (notably the "old world"), these constituencies have remained politically strong enough over all those centuries to still be around now. So, this romanticizing about the "proud old tradition" is completely the wrong reaction. There are many things with an "old tradition" where it would seem quite odd if a given country hadn't gotten rid of it (like collective punishment, or whatever; the examples are easy to think of). So something being old is neither here nor there. > Yes, local integration has value, but also means you had to stick around to get there - comes with a cost. Not sure if you're implying that regulatory capture of local government is some kind of just reward for "sticking around." If so, I disagree.