7 ms·

Interesting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedul

by bodash 1mo ago

Interesting. I’m also a night owl who struggled waking up like an early bird. Was the transition and efforts worth it? Recently I tried to find a better schedule other than spending another X years fighting my biological clock

PeterStuer 1mo ago
It was not an option. Kids need a regular schedule with school and things. It was rough though. I did not ever drink coffee before that time, but starting then I needed several cups just to avoid accidents in the morning.
- siren2026 1mo ago
  School starts way too early. That's something we need to change. I grew up in Europe and school started at 9AM. Which allowed for an 8AM wake up. Unlike here where my kids need to wake up at 6AM. Absolutely ridiculous
  - remuskaos 1mo ago
    "I grew up in Europe" can literally be any one of over 40 different countries, and even more education systems. I am in Germany, and school starts at 8 in Berlin, 8:05 in Wiesbaden, 7:45 in some small cities in Baden-Württemberg... And those are only the ones that I, personally, experienced. I'm sure Poland and Spain have different times, not lastly owing to timezones etc. Please don't treat all of Europe as one single country with one set of customs.
    - inigyou 1mo ago
      Note that Germany is one or two hours off from what its natural timezone would be, to align with more of Europe.
    - siren2026 1mo ago
      Yes Germany is famous for starting too early, it is an outlier. The 5 countries around where I grew up have starting times between 8:30AM and 9AM. Overall Europe is simply nor as much as a morning culture as the US. Probably because life is more communal and cities have things to do in the evening (in the US, my theory is that car culture killed all energy in the evenings).
sigmoid10 1mo ago
Eliminate all screens after sundown. It's literally the nr 1 reason why people struggle. I used to as well (I could easily work in front of a monitor until 4am without getting tired with no coffee or anything). After that, avoid any bright white lights in the evening (usually kitchen/bathroom). It's not always possible, depending on your work and place of living and especially while travelling. I ended up getting extreme blue light filtering glasses too (make sure they cover your eyes fully so light doesn't leak in from the side). Looks ridiculous, but that helped a lot. Finally, add a wind down routine that does not involve any kind of mental or physical excitement. For me it was as simple as walking around the block for 10-15min. But it can be anything that doesn't stimulate you in any way. You can try to sit in the darkness and meditate. You will not just sleep better, you will have no issues sleeping at night and getting up in the morning. Downside is that you will definitely be awake once the sun rises (sucks in summer if you live far from the equator) and if you shut the blinds and have no automatic opener you are very likely to oversleep. Tuning your body to the solar day has pros and cons.
- siren2026 1mo ago
  I tried all those things, none worked. You are assuming every brain is wired like yours. It has been proven multiple times that we all have different hormonal levels during the day based on the light patterns. Some people only produce melatonin several hours after it's getting dark. Your assumption of a world where we all behave the same regarding sleep is one of the reason why the US became such a bad 6AM hustle culture.
  - mettamage 1mo ago
    What worked for me is mirtazapine at 7.5 mg (higher will make it a stimulant anyway). The irony is my doctor is really sceptical. A friend prescribed it to me, who is also a doctor. And he was a bit pissed at my doctor. Quite literally: "your doctor can fucking call me if she questions my methods and I will overflow her with research on this" type of vibe. He did quite some research into it. And I trust him. Of course, do your own research, consult your own doctor, not a doctor. And as you say: it's not for everyone. But not enough people mention it. Let me it at least kick it off by looking for a study myself [1, 2, 3] (I just used Google Scholar). Four things I've noticed: 1. For the studies saying it only works for 6 weeks, not if you only take it three to four times per week (three is better). You can literally feel the habituation go up and down when you play with the dose. I become really sensitive to it within days. 2. First time I took it, it gave me a sedated feel for like 14 hours. So the first few times, you need to desensitize a bit to it actually (don't drive a car the first few times). 3. For me, when paired with 0.3 mg melatonin 2 hours before bed, it stacks. 4. When I'm super stressed, it doesn't work. I need to be and feel normal. Again: not a doctor, not medical advice. My advice is to discuss this with your doctor and see if they know anything about it. If they don't, well then, I guess my doctor friend knows something that other doctors don't. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ahsan-Aziz-Sarkar/publication/395201634_Therapeutic_Effects_and_Safety_of_Mirtazapine_for_Insomnia_in_Major_Depressive_Disorder_Findings_from_a_6-Week_Open-Label_Pre-_and_Post-Intervention_Study/links/6972230752773b62239ca58b/Therapeutic-Effects-and-Safety-of-Mirtazapine-for-Insomnia-in-Major-Depressive-Disorder-Findings-from-a-6-Week-Open-Label-Pre-and-Post-Intervention-Study.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ahsan-Aziz-Sarkar/publi... [2] https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/54/3/afaf050/8093583 https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/54/3/afaf050/8093583 [3] https://bjgp.org/content/bjgp/early/2025/01/15/BJGP.2024.0173.full.pdf https://bjgp.org/content/bjgp/early/2025/01/15/BJGP.2024.017...
Itchyjohn 1mo ago
You have to completely stop caffeine, best to cut nicotine too. It's worth it. Watch out for caffeine In cola etc.
- siren2026 1mo ago
  Why is it worth it? Why are you fighting against your natural circadian rhythm? We still all got 24 hours right? My background is that as the poster above, I have always been a night owl, with the ability to function and wake up earlier if I need to. For years I have tried to change it because of beliefs like yours that it was "worth it". Whenever I tried to change it I would feel unergetic, crappy and unmotivated. I would stumble on words and have terrible sleep. Yes, I tried to stop caffeine, use candle light only, ton of supplements. Nothing worked. Since then I have accepted I'm a night owl, and I should embrace it. I have never felt better since the day I have decided to stop fighting it. The 6AM hustle seems amazing in theory but at the end of the day we all only got 24 hours.
  - FooBarWidget 1mo ago
    Taking caffeine is fighting against natural circadian rhythm, avoiding caffeine isn't.
  - ventana 1mo ago
    That's either before, or after you have kids (if ever). As long as the school starts, you have (almost) no choice.
    - siren2026 1mo ago
      I have kids. I have an amazing partner, but can also rally the days I need to get them to school myself. But even when I need to wake up abnormally early (kids should never wake up that early but that's a different debate) I still don't feel like going to sleep early.
- ventana 1mo ago
  Being a coffee drinker, I would not agree with the "worth it" part, but I was indeed surprised to learn some time ago that a can of Diet coke contains 46 mg of caffeine, which is basically a half of espresso shot. We don't let kids drink coffee, but we let them drink coke, which just does not make any sense. Out of these two, I would assume espresso brings much less harm! Recently, I started using an app to track my caffeine consumption during a day (there are a bunch of those in the stores), and even though I haven't stopped drinking coffee and not planning to, I'm trying to stay within a reasonable limit and switch to decaf if I'm close to it.
siren2026 1mo ago
As a night owl who tried to fight it for too long my advice is don't change your natural circadian rythm. For some reason hustle influencer culture made us believe we should wake up at 6AM for a productive day. We all have 24 hours, just do what works for you. Most of Europe doesn't wake up that early. Only the US is obsessed with 4AM hustle culture. Stop that! I tried to change my sleep for 10 years and for the last 2 I have been embracing the night owl rhythm. And yes I have kids and an amazing partner.
- andrepd 1mo ago
  It's silly to say that "Europe" has substantially different working hours for the majority of the population, compared to the US. Grindset hustle sigma influencers are an outlier of course.
  - siren2026 1mo ago
    For having lived in both continents, American is generally an early morning culture and Europe is generally an evening culture. There are local differences within the continents of course.
    - jijijijij 1mo ago
      Don't know about the US, but isn't it "9to5" there too? Is there much "culture" before 9? I can say in Germany "9to..." is also applying to cafes, supermarkets, ... pretty much nothing is open before 8 in the morning (with the exception of stuff in train stations), even some supermarkets only open at 9. So there certainly is no "culture" earlier than that. School often starts at 8, so parents frequently start the day at 6 or earlier. Same if you got an hour commuting time etc.. I don't know anybody who would wake up at 4 by choice, tho.
    - ACS_Solver 1mo ago
      I wouldn't generalize Europe like that, our differences in the normal schedule are massive from north to south. Here in Sweden, it's a morning culture. Blue collar workers often start work at 7, daycare is open from 6 in the morning for parents with early jobs, dinner is at 18 or even 17 for people. At 22, most places are closed including supermarkets and restaurant kitchens. Lunch for the vast majority of working people is at noon. That is totally different to a country like Spain, where you see families - with kids! - start dinner at 21 or later. In Sweden people would say it's strange not to have your kids in bed by then. Lunch is at 14, cities are full of life until midnight every day. A large part of that is probably due to daylight hours. A big chunk of Sweden is dark by 16 for the winter half of the year. During November-January there's minimal light and it's gone by 15.
maccard 1mo ago
Anecdotally, I’m a night owl by default but if I force myself up for exercise at 7am, I am tired that night and I am better (mentally and physically) that day. My workouts aren’t as good as if they were after work, but it doesn’t matter if I’m going 3/4 times a week. My mood is better, my routine matches the “world” better, and I would say I’m mentally sharper on those days too. YMMV
iammjm 1mo ago
This is how I did it: this is about two things: mornings and evenings and both need attention. Set a new wake up time. Deduct 7 hours from it. Deduct one more for buffer. This tells you when you need to be in bed with lights out and trying to fall asleep to then get the mandatory 7h of sleep to be a functional human being in the morning. If your new wake target is 5:45, you need to be in bed lights out at 22:45 and since 21:45 with no screens. So you need to deduct another hour to cut off screens early, and in optimal case like -3 more to cut food intake and -6 more to cut caffeine intake. I got some reminders on my phone which let me know the time comes, so I spend the last hour before nights out reading or writing or whatever. So that’s evenings. In the morning my phone rings and to turn it off I need to scan a QR code in my bathroom (alarmy app). This forces me out of bed and then I drink about 500ml of water. I also have a smart plug with a LED light on it which go on together with the alarm clock and goes on for 20 mins. Once wake, I spend 15 minutes in front of it getting light in my face which signals the body the day starts. Then I get dressed and go out for a short quick walk/run outside (aka powerwalk) which gets my heart working. Then I come back, make coffee and start work. This way I get enough good quality sleep + each morning physical signals (water, light, movement) that signal my body it is action time. I was very surprised that already after a week my body started waking up minutes before the alarm clock! And that’s after decades of irregular late sleep! But consistency is key: early sleep and early wake up on as many days as possible. It is totally doable and you can streamline in into a simple process which doesn’t take much time or effort.
- phil21 1mo ago
  I have done all this and more. Done all the stupid advice you get from everyone who was simply a morning person living an irresponsible life but then grew up, hired professionals, and even tried prescription drugs for a period of time. It is not totally doable. It just makes fitting into the economic world slightly less shitty. I yearn for retirement not so I can stop working, but so I can finally get a full “night” worth of sleep and wake up with a clear mind for the first time since my 20s when I worked a night shift. It’s been decades of being rather miserable. Not everyone is built for the current world, and the gatekeepers all apparently seem to be morning people who despise night folks. Waking up is the easy part. Having your brain engage to full power is the hard bit. I will get 8-9 hours of sleep and still spend the whole day groggy until the evening, and then my mental energy and motivation really kicks in around 9pm or so. But then it’s time to wind down. Vacations for me are just taking a week off so I can go back to my natural sleeping patterns and do personal projects at 4am.

by bodash 1mo ago

PeterStuer 1mo ago

It was not an option. Kids need a regular schedule with school and things. It was rough though. I did not ever drink coffee before that time, but starting then I needed several cups just to avoid accidents in the morning.

siren2026 1mo ago
School starts way too early. That's something we need to change. I grew up in Europe and school started at 9AM. Which allowed for an 8AM wake up. Unlike here where my kids need to wake up at 6AM. Absolutely ridiculous
- remuskaos 1mo ago
  "I grew up in Europe" can literally be any one of over 40 different countries, and even more education systems. I am in Germany, and school starts at 8 in Berlin, 8:05 in Wiesbaden, 7:45 in some small cities in Baden-Württemberg... And those are only the ones that I, personally, experienced. I'm sure Poland and Spain have different times, not lastly owing to timezones etc. Please don't treat all of Europe as one single country with one set of customs.
  - inigyou 1mo ago
    Note that Germany is one or two hours off from what its natural timezone would be, to align with more of Europe.
  - siren2026 1mo ago
    Yes Germany is famous for starting too early, it is an outlier. The 5 countries around where I grew up have starting times between 8:30AM and 9AM. Overall Europe is simply nor as much as a morning culture as the US. Probably because life is more communal and cities have things to do in the evening (in the US, my theory is that car culture killed all energy in the evenings).

sigmoid10 1mo ago

Eliminate all screens after sundown. It's literally the nr 1 reason why people struggle. I used to as well (I could easily work in front of a monitor until 4am without getting tired with no coffee or anything). After that, avoid any bright white lights in the evening (usually kitchen/bathroom). It's not always possible, depending on your work and place of living and especially while travelling. I ended up getting extreme blue light filtering glasses too (make sure they cover your eyes fully so light doesn't leak in from the side). Looks ridiculous, but that helped a lot. Finally, add a wind down routine that does not involve any kind of mental or physical excitement. For me it was as simple as walking around the block for 10-15min. But it can be anything that doesn't stimulate you in any way. You can try to sit in the darkness and meditate. You will not just sleep better, you will have no issues sleeping at night and getting up in the morning. Downside is that you will definitely be awake once the sun rises (sucks in summer if you live far from the equator) and if you shut the blinds and have no automatic opener you are very likely to oversleep. Tuning your body to the solar day has pros and cons.

siren2026 1mo ago
I tried all those things, none worked. You are assuming every brain is wired like yours. It has been proven multiple times that we all have different hormonal levels during the day based on the light patterns. Some people only produce melatonin several hours after it's getting dark. Your assumption of a world where we all behave the same regarding sleep is one of the reason why the US became such a bad 6AM hustle culture.
- mettamage 1mo ago
  What worked for me is mirtazapine at 7.5 mg (higher will make it a stimulant anyway). The irony is my doctor is really sceptical. A friend prescribed it to me, who is also a doctor. And he was a bit pissed at my doctor. Quite literally: "your doctor can fucking call me if she questions my methods and I will overflow her with research on this" type of vibe. He did quite some research into it. And I trust him. Of course, do your own research, consult your own doctor, not a doctor. And as you say: it's not for everyone. But not enough people mention it. Let me it at least kick it off by looking for a study myself [1, 2, 3] (I just used Google Scholar). Four things I've noticed: 1. For the studies saying it only works for 6 weeks, not if you only take it three to four times per week (three is better). You can literally feel the habituation go up and down when you play with the dose. I become really sensitive to it within days. 2. First time I took it, it gave me a sedated feel for like 14 hours. So the first few times, you need to desensitize a bit to it actually (don't drive a car the first few times). 3. For me, when paired with 0.3 mg melatonin 2 hours before bed, it stacks. 4. When I'm super stressed, it doesn't work. I need to be and feel normal. Again: not a doctor, not medical advice. My advice is to discuss this with your doctor and see if they know anything about it. If they don't, well then, I guess my doctor friend knows something that other doctors don't. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ahsan-Aziz-Sarkar/publication/395201634_Therapeutic_Effects_and_Safety_of_Mirtazapine_for_Insomnia_in_Major_Depressive_Disorder_Findings_from_a_6-Week_Open-Label_Pre-_and_Post-Intervention_Study/links/6972230752773b62239ca58b/Therapeutic-Effects-and-Safety-of-Mirtazapine-for-Insomnia-in-Major-Depressive-Disorder-Findings-from-a-6-Week-Open-Label-Pre-and-Post-Intervention-Study.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ahsan-Aziz-Sarkar/publi... [2] https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/54/3/afaf050/8093583 https://academic.oup.com/ageing/article/54/3/afaf050/8093583 [3] https://bjgp.org/content/bjgp/early/2025/01/15/BJGP.2024.0173.full.pdf https://bjgp.org/content/bjgp/early/2025/01/15/BJGP.2024.017...

Itchyjohn 1mo ago

You have to completely stop caffeine, best to cut nicotine too. It's worth it. Watch out for caffeine In cola etc.

siren2026 1mo ago
Why is it worth it? Why are you fighting against your natural circadian rhythm? We still all got 24 hours right? My background is that as the poster above, I have always been a night owl, with the ability to function and wake up earlier if I need to. For years I have tried to change it because of beliefs like yours that it was "worth it". Whenever I tried to change it I would feel unergetic, crappy and unmotivated. I would stumble on words and have terrible sleep. Yes, I tried to stop caffeine, use candle light only, ton of supplements. Nothing worked. Since then I have accepted I'm a night owl, and I should embrace it. I have never felt better since the day I have decided to stop fighting it. The 6AM hustle seems amazing in theory but at the end of the day we all only got 24 hours.
- FooBarWidget 1mo ago
  Taking caffeine is fighting against natural circadian rhythm, avoiding caffeine isn't.
- ventana 1mo ago
  That's either before, or after you have kids (if ever). As long as the school starts, you have (almost) no choice.
  - siren2026 1mo ago
    I have kids. I have an amazing partner, but can also rally the days I need to get them to school myself. But even when I need to wake up abnormally early (kids should never wake up that early but that's a different debate) I still don't feel like going to sleep early.
ventana 1mo ago
Being a coffee drinker, I would not agree with the "worth it" part, but I was indeed surprised to learn some time ago that a can of Diet coke contains 46 mg of caffeine, which is basically a half of espresso shot. We don't let kids drink coffee, but we let them drink coke, which just does not make any sense. Out of these two, I would assume espresso brings much less harm! Recently, I started using an app to track my caffeine consumption during a day (there are a bunch of those in the stores), and even though I haven't stopped drinking coffee and not planning to, I'm trying to stay within a reasonable limit and switch to decaf if I'm close to it.

siren2026 1mo ago

As a night owl who tried to fight it for too long my advice is don't change your natural circadian rythm. For some reason hustle influencer culture made us believe we should wake up at 6AM for a productive day. We all have 24 hours, just do what works for you. Most of Europe doesn't wake up that early. Only the US is obsessed with 4AM hustle culture. Stop that! I tried to change my sleep for 10 years and for the last 2 I have been embracing the night owl rhythm. And yes I have kids and an amazing partner.

andrepd 1mo ago
It's silly to say that "Europe" has substantially different working hours for the majority of the population, compared to the US. Grindset hustle sigma influencers are an outlier of course.
- siren2026 1mo ago
  For having lived in both continents, American is generally an early morning culture and Europe is generally an evening culture. There are local differences within the continents of course.
  - jijijijij 1mo ago
    Don't know about the US, but isn't it "9to5" there too? Is there much "culture" before 9? I can say in Germany "9to..." is also applying to cafes, supermarkets, ... pretty much nothing is open before 8 in the morning (with the exception of stuff in train stations), even some supermarkets only open at 9. So there certainly is no "culture" earlier than that. School often starts at 8, so parents frequently start the day at 6 or earlier. Same if you got an hour commuting time etc.. I don't know anybody who would wake up at 4 by choice, tho.
  - ACS_Solver 1mo ago
    I wouldn't generalize Europe like that, our differences in the normal schedule are massive from north to south. Here in Sweden, it's a morning culture. Blue collar workers often start work at 7, daycare is open from 6 in the morning for parents with early jobs, dinner is at 18 or even 17 for people. At 22, most places are closed including supermarkets and restaurant kitchens. Lunch for the vast majority of working people is at noon. That is totally different to a country like Spain, where you see families - with kids! - start dinner at 21 or later. In Sweden people would say it's strange not to have your kids in bed by then. Lunch is at 14, cities are full of life until midnight every day. A large part of that is probably due to daylight hours. A big chunk of Sweden is dark by 16 for the winter half of the year. During November-January there's minimal light and it's gone by 15.

maccard 1mo ago

Anecdotally, I’m a night owl by default but if I force myself up for exercise at 7am, I am tired that night and I am better (mentally and physically) that day. My workouts aren’t as good as if they were after work, but it doesn’t matter if I’m going 3/4 times a week. My mood is better, my routine matches the “world” better, and I would say I’m mentally sharper on those days too. YMMV

iammjm 1mo ago

This is how I did it: this is about two things: mornings and evenings and both need attention. Set a new wake up time. Deduct 7 hours from it. Deduct one more for buffer. This tells you when you need to be in bed with lights out and trying to fall asleep to then get the mandatory 7h of sleep to be a functional human being in the morning. If your new wake target is 5:45, you need to be in bed lights out at 22:45 and since 21:45 with no screens. So you need to deduct another hour to cut off screens early, and in optimal case like -3 more to cut food intake and -6 more to cut caffeine intake. I got some reminders on my phone which let me know the time comes, so I spend the last hour before nights out reading or writing or whatever. So that’s evenings. In the morning my phone rings and to turn it off I need to scan a QR code in my bathroom (alarmy app). This forces me out of bed and then I drink about 500ml of water. I also have a smart plug with a LED light on it which go on together with the alarm clock and goes on for 20 mins. Once wake, I spend 15 minutes in front of it getting light in my face which signals the body the day starts. Then I get dressed and go out for a short quick walk/run outside (aka powerwalk) which gets my heart working. Then I come back, make coffee and start work. This way I get enough good quality sleep + each morning physical signals (water, light, movement) that signal my body it is action time. I was very surprised that already after a week my body started waking up minutes before the alarm clock! And that’s after decades of irregular late sleep! But consistency is key: early sleep and early wake up on as many days as possible. It is totally doable and you can streamline in into a simple process which doesn’t take much time or effort.

phil21 1mo ago
I have done all this and more. Done all the stupid advice you get from everyone who was simply a morning person living an irresponsible life but then grew up, hired professionals, and even tried prescription drugs for a period of time. It is not totally doable. It just makes fitting into the economic world slightly less shitty. I yearn for retirement not so I can stop working, but so I can finally get a full “night” worth of sleep and wake up with a clear mind for the first time since my 20s when I worked a night shift. It’s been decades of being rather miserable. Not everyone is built for the current world, and the gatekeepers all apparently seem to be morning people who despise night folks. Waking up is the easy part. Having your brain engage to full power is the hard bit. I will get 8-9 hours of sleep and still spend the whole day groggy until the evening, and then my mental energy and motivation really kicks in around 9pm or so. But then it’s time to wind down. Vacations for me are just taking a week off so I can go back to my natural sleeping patterns and do personal projects at 4am.