4 ms·

> You probably won't pick a driver sitting on the edge of the frontier because you want some balance between speed and acceleration for super mario kart speedr

by __s 1mo ago

> You probably won't pick a driver sitting on the edge of the frontier because you want some balance between speed and acceleration for super mario kart speedruns go with bowser/dk: https://www.speedrun.com/smk/runs/zp68nr8m https://www.speedrun.com/smk/runs/zp68nr8m That seemed to hold up for Mario Kart 8 too going with Bowser at the edge of their pareto frontier, https://www.speedrun.com/mk8 https://www.speedrun.com/mk8 needing acceleration is a skill issue

kelnos 1mo ago
> needing acceleration is a skill issue Skill level is an attribute you use to weight the dimensions. Sure, if you're an expert player who rarely gets hit (and can optimally use a mini boost to recover when you do), acceleration doesn't matter as much. But most people are not expert players, and play too casually to ever get to that level. Ignoring acceleration just won't create a fun experience for them.
ChrisGreenHeur 1mo ago
Adding skill is just another dimension to the calculation.
- deleted 1mo ago
  [deleted]
frantathefranta 1mo ago
On the other hand, if you are a casual and want to dominate 99% races you enter at people's homes, pick Toadette (with Mr. Scooty). I don't think I've lost since 2019.
paytonjjones 1mo ago
Speedruns are for playing the track solo, right? If you're playing normally (with other people and items), even the most skilled player can't avoid getting hit by some universal items and will benefit from acceleration. Hence, as the author notes, the balanced build with Peach being favored among competitive players.
- crtasm 1mo ago
  GP first link is to a speedrun in the all cups category, played with items and computer opponents. There's a video included. People do speedrun the individual tracks solo in other categories.
  - __s 1mo ago
    It's a fair point that such an environment will be different than playing against other humans
  - bspammer 1mo ago
    For a speedrun you don't care about 100 failed runs as long as you get the world record once. You're basically hoping to get lucky that the computer opponent won't hit you. Obviously you're going to pick the greediest (i.e highest speed) choice in that setting, that doesn't make it good in normal gameplay.
    - deleted 1mo ago
      [deleted]
- drdexebtjl 1mo ago
  Acceleration is not very important at a high enough level because you can mini-turbo up to top speed when you get hit.
- TheAceOfHearts 1mo ago
  Even with items enabled across both categories, you're optimizing for different things. In the speedrun case you're optimizing for the fastest possible peak time, while with regular racing you're optimizing for the most consistent performance and winning. The speedrun category build can be worse on average but make up for it by providing higher peaks when you get lucky.
_superposition_ 1mo ago
Lol skill issue... Right! But that's how you choose your weights. If you're not a great driver you need to give more consideration to acceleration.
rtkwe 1mo ago
It's optimizing for different environments and opponents, the speed runs only have to deal with the AI not human players and take such crazy paths the AI isn't around to really mess with them so they don't have to worry about reaccelerating. In versus it's much less likely you'll be able to avoid all the other players so you need to be able to get back up to speed after being hit. A common strategy in the online vs mode is actually back running to collect better items then cashing them in rapidly to win.
dmonitor 1mo ago
Acceleration is pointless because of the hidden Mini Turbo stat
kommunicate 1mo ago
no, even in time trials it depends on the track. If top speed were the most important metric you would see the same meta build for every world record time trial, but that's not the case. Also, miniturbo is the single most important stat in the game, not top speed
nightpool 1mo ago
This used to be true on older patches but it's not at all how top players play these days. See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejt52UgnhAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejt52UgnhAo for an example of the meta that prevailed for top-level versus play around the end of MK8's lifespan (Yoshi Biddybuggy Roller or Yoshi Teddybuggy Roller depending on your preferred drift style) or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvrCP50Gfj4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvrCP50Gfj4 for a breakdown of some of the latest time trial world records. At the beginning of the game's lifecycle top speed was the most important stat, but as more tricks were developed and the game's balance was adjusted, having faster and more consistent miniturbo boosts became much more important. (Mario Kart World, which isn't covered in this article, has a more standard speed vs acceleration trade off but in that game high-max-speed (heavy) combos have even worse problems due to the way the rail grind mechanic was implemented and what seems to be an unforeseen interaction with the coin curve see e.g. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sPyur6BkiOs https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sPyur6BkiOs)

by __s 1mo ago

kelnos 1mo ago

> needing acceleration is a skill issue Skill level is an attribute you use to weight the dimensions. Sure, if you're an expert player who rarely gets hit (and can optimally use a mini boost to recover when you do), acceleration doesn't matter as much. But most people are not expert players, and play too casually to ever get to that level. Ignoring acceleration just won't create a fun experience for them.

ChrisGreenHeur 1mo ago

Adding skill is just another dimension to the calculation.

deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]

frantathefranta 1mo ago

On the other hand, if you are a casual and want to dominate 99% races you enter at people's homes, pick Toadette (with Mr. Scooty). I don't think I've lost since 2019.

paytonjjones 1mo ago

Speedruns are for playing the track solo, right? If you're playing normally (with other people and items), even the most skilled player can't avoid getting hit by some universal items and will benefit from acceleration. Hence, as the author notes, the balanced build with Peach being favored among competitive players.

crtasm 1mo ago
GP first link is to a speedrun in the all cups category, played with items and computer opponents. There's a video included. People do speedrun the individual tracks solo in other categories.
- __s 1mo ago
  It's a fair point that such an environment will be different than playing against other humans
- bspammer 1mo ago
  For a speedrun you don't care about 100 failed runs as long as you get the world record once. You're basically hoping to get lucky that the computer opponent won't hit you. Obviously you're going to pick the greediest (i.e highest speed) choice in that setting, that doesn't make it good in normal gameplay.
  - deleted 1mo ago
    [deleted]
drdexebtjl 1mo ago
Acceleration is not very important at a high enough level because you can mini-turbo up to top speed when you get hit.
TheAceOfHearts 1mo ago
Even with items enabled across both categories, you're optimizing for different things. In the speedrun case you're optimizing for the fastest possible peak time, while with regular racing you're optimizing for the most consistent performance and winning. The speedrun category build can be worse on average but make up for it by providing higher peaks when you get lucky.

_superposition_ 1mo ago

Lol skill issue... Right! But that's how you choose your weights. If you're not a great driver you need to give more consideration to acceleration.

rtkwe 1mo ago

It's optimizing for different environments and opponents, the speed runs only have to deal with the AI not human players and take such crazy paths the AI isn't around to really mess with them so they don't have to worry about reaccelerating. In versus it's much less likely you'll be able to avoid all the other players so you need to be able to get back up to speed after being hit. A common strategy in the online vs mode is actually back running to collect better items then cashing them in rapidly to win.

dmonitor 1mo ago

Acceleration is pointless because of the hidden Mini Turbo stat

kommunicate 1mo ago

no, even in time trials it depends on the track. If top speed were the most important metric you would see the same meta build for every world record time trial, but that's not the case. Also, miniturbo is the single most important stat in the game, not top speed

nightpool 1mo ago

This used to be true on older patches but it's not at all how top players play these days. See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejt52UgnhAo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejt52UgnhAo for an example of the meta that prevailed for top-level versus play around the end of MK8's lifespan (Yoshi Biddybuggy Roller or Yoshi Teddybuggy Roller depending on your preferred drift style) or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvrCP50Gfj4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvrCP50Gfj4 for a breakdown of some of the latest time trial world records. At the beginning of the game's lifecycle top speed was the most important stat, but as more tricks were developed and the game's balance was adjusted, having faster and more consistent miniturbo boosts became much more important. (Mario Kart World, which isn't covered in this article, has a more standard speed vs acceleration trade off but in that game high-max-speed (heavy) combos have even worse problems due to the way the rail grind mechanic was implemented and what seems to be an unforeseen interaction with the coin curve see e.g. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sPyur6BkiOs https://www.youtube.com/shorts/sPyur6BkiOs)