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I've said this to every single person who pushed for this. "Imagine you're a teenager, and your parents and government tell you to not do something... What wil

I've said this to every single person who pushed for this. "Imagine you're a teenager, and your parents and government tell you to not do something... What will happen?" The answer is of course that they keep doing it anyhow. But hide it. As an Aussie, and a parent. What I wanted was that the government mandate that in order for your website or app to launch in Australia, that if you want to allow kids between certain ages on the website/app. Then you need to have robust parental controls. Create family accounts where you can link parents and children, share whatever tracking/tracing you have with said parents and make it as good as you can. Mandate specific minimum controls based on what kind of type of app/website it is. Put the control in the hands of the parents, and not this stupid one size fits all approach.

jtokoph 2mo ago
Won’t kids just make a new secret account that doesn’t belong to the family? Like you said, they will do it anyway
- intothemild 2mo ago
  Still better than what we have now.
ranger_danger 2mo ago
Nice idea but how are you going to prevent the kids from creating their own parent accounts while preserving people's privacy and without being too invasive?
- intothemild 2mo ago
  You introduce it at a really young age, which is what we did for our daughter. She doesn't get access to anything that doesn't have good parental controls. So far it's working fine, I expect that to change in the future. But it's also both the carrot and the stick at the moment. As for creating parent accounts themselves. Imagine you've got a kid, you've created an account for you and the kid.. you have stats, data, usage etc. And suddenly the kids on their device all day, but you see nothing. That's how you know. Will the kid find a way around it. Probably.. I expect them too. But it's still a hell of a lot better than what we have. Because it puts more control and visibility in the hands of the parents than it does the state and people like Peter Thiel. Will there be idiot parents who just don't care. For sure. But thats already happening. You can't stop that.
  - ranger_danger 2mo ago
    That's what I meant... good parenting aside, I would wager the vast majority still need a way to get blocked because the parents aren't going to do it. As a country, that's what they're struggling with, and what I was asking for a better solution for. We're at the point now at least in the US where pre-teens already have (secured) starter credit cards they got from a joint account with their parents and can now order anything online they want. And don't forget, companies automatically assume valid credit card = over 18.
blitzar 2mo ago
We just need to go back to telling kids they cant go outside and cant have sex.
astrobe_ 2mo ago
Here some types of small motorize vehicles can be used by persons under 16. Of course, they have built-in speed limiters. What if we had this kind of distinction for mobile devices with Internet access? Adult's smartphone vs kid's smartphone? It could be some sort of combo of a specific "for kids" SIM card (with, say, DNS blocking at ISP level and/or date of birth of the user) and a "kids hardened" OS that prevent bypasses and the parental monitoring tools you mention. The OS (in a wide sense, that could extend to the browser and other mission-critical programs) could be certified by some national agency; commercial products have to pay for the test, FLOSS projects could tested for free on request.
- flowerbreeze 2mo ago
  It'd be the sensible non-surveillance option. All that would be required is that the OS or SIM sold is a tiny bit different with a flag that the browsers/apps respect and that each website that accepts underage users sends a header that browsers can check and allow/disallow access. Compliance with child friendly legal requirements would still be with the company owning the website. Of course it's not as attractive to the governments as putting in place a full scale surveillance aparatus that puts KGB to shame.
  - astrobe_ 2mo ago
    Well if one assumes "Never attribute to malice..." for a moment here, it's quite understandable that they'd like to kill 3 birds with one stone, and one would agree that having ways to fight against pedos and mafias is actually helping with one of the "mission statements" of most states. However, laws are a delicate matter, especially those that have to limit some rights to guarantee others (here privacy and security). Making distinct laws for children protection and against online activities related to crime certainly should allow more fine tuning of each framework.
grebc 2mo ago
They're providing for lowest common denominator. You already said you've got your own solution.
- intothemild 2mo ago
  Yes. But there's holes in the solutions available. What's been interesting is watching a lot of these apps and sites try and add in some form or parental controls in an effort to try and dissuade other countries from doing the same. What I'm asking for, is a mandated minimum set of controls. Which is far better than the sparse/spotty/nonexistent controls we have now.
dalemhurley 2mo ago
You’re probably too young to remember when anti smoking laws were introduced to Australia. It took decades to change behaviours and attitudes. The cigarette industry did everything in their powers to undermine the laws. The social media giants are playing the same game.
- intothemild 2mo ago
  I was running club and pub nights in Sydney when those laws came into effect. You're right, but one can argue given the current state of affairs things are now out of control.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  Berlin is 20 years behind and has been phasing out smoking over the past few years. People still smoke in pubs and clubs. But less. It used to be inescapable that you'd leave the place with your hair and clothes smelling strongly of cigarettes. It's no longer that bad even though some people defy the rule.
iamnothere 2mo ago
> The answer is of course that they keep doing it anyhow. But hide it. Not only hide it, but develop a (suddenly healthy) contempt for the rule of law.
inigyou 2mo ago
What if that's the point? What if having to hide it means you do it less?
- intothemild 2mo ago
  I haven't met a teen who behaves like this.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    How many cigarettes did you smoke per day as a teen? Would you smoke more or less if you could do it anywhere anytime?

jtokoph 2mo ago

Won’t kids just make a new secret account that doesn’t belong to the family? Like you said, they will do it anyway

intothemild 2mo ago
Still better than what we have now.

ranger_danger 2mo ago

Nice idea but how are you going to prevent the kids from creating their own parent accounts while preserving people's privacy and without being too invasive?

intothemild 2mo ago
You introduce it at a really young age, which is what we did for our daughter. She doesn't get access to anything that doesn't have good parental controls. So far it's working fine, I expect that to change in the future. But it's also both the carrot and the stick at the moment. As for creating parent accounts themselves. Imagine you've got a kid, you've created an account for you and the kid.. you have stats, data, usage etc. And suddenly the kids on their device all day, but you see nothing. That's how you know. Will the kid find a way around it. Probably.. I expect them too. But it's still a hell of a lot better than what we have. Because it puts more control and visibility in the hands of the parents than it does the state and people like Peter Thiel. Will there be idiot parents who just don't care. For sure. But thats already happening. You can't stop that.
- ranger_danger 2mo ago
  That's what I meant... good parenting aside, I would wager the vast majority still need a way to get blocked because the parents aren't going to do it. As a country, that's what they're struggling with, and what I was asking for a better solution for. We're at the point now at least in the US where pre-teens already have (secured) starter credit cards they got from a joint account with their parents and can now order anything online they want. And don't forget, companies automatically assume valid credit card = over 18.

blitzar 2mo ago

We just need to go back to telling kids they cant go outside and cant have sex.

astrobe_ 2mo ago

Here some types of small motorize vehicles can be used by persons under 16. Of course, they have built-in speed limiters. What if we had this kind of distinction for mobile devices with Internet access? Adult's smartphone vs kid's smartphone? It could be some sort of combo of a specific "for kids" SIM card (with, say, DNS blocking at ISP level and/or date of birth of the user) and a "kids hardened" OS that prevent bypasses and the parental monitoring tools you mention. The OS (in a wide sense, that could extend to the browser and other mission-critical programs) could be certified by some national agency; commercial products have to pay for the test, FLOSS projects could tested for free on request.

flowerbreeze 2mo ago
It'd be the sensible non-surveillance option. All that would be required is that the OS or SIM sold is a tiny bit different with a flag that the browsers/apps respect and that each website that accepts underage users sends a header that browsers can check and allow/disallow access. Compliance with child friendly legal requirements would still be with the company owning the website. Of course it's not as attractive to the governments as putting in place a full scale surveillance aparatus that puts KGB to shame.
- astrobe_ 2mo ago
  Well if one assumes "Never attribute to malice..." for a moment here, it's quite understandable that they'd like to kill 3 birds with one stone, and one would agree that having ways to fight against pedos and mafias is actually helping with one of the "mission statements" of most states. However, laws are a delicate matter, especially those that have to limit some rights to guarantee others (here privacy and security). Making distinct laws for children protection and against online activities related to crime certainly should allow more fine tuning of each framework.

grebc 2mo ago

They're providing for lowest common denominator. You already said you've got your own solution.

intothemild 2mo ago
Yes. But there's holes in the solutions available. What's been interesting is watching a lot of these apps and sites try and add in some form or parental controls in an effort to try and dissuade other countries from doing the same. What I'm asking for, is a mandated minimum set of controls. Which is far better than the sparse/spotty/nonexistent controls we have now.

dalemhurley 2mo ago

You’re probably too young to remember when anti smoking laws were introduced to Australia. It took decades to change behaviours and attitudes. The cigarette industry did everything in their powers to undermine the laws. The social media giants are playing the same game.

intothemild 2mo ago
I was running club and pub nights in Sydney when those laws came into effect. You're right, but one can argue given the current state of affairs things are now out of control.
inigyou 2mo ago
Berlin is 20 years behind and has been phasing out smoking over the past few years. People still smoke in pubs and clubs. But less. It used to be inescapable that you'd leave the place with your hair and clothes smelling strongly of cigarettes. It's no longer that bad even though some people defy the rule.

iamnothere 2mo ago

> The answer is of course that they keep doing it anyhow. But hide it. Not only hide it, but develop a (suddenly healthy) contempt for the rule of law.

inigyou 2mo ago

What if that's the point? What if having to hide it means you do it less?

intothemild 2mo ago
I haven't met a teen who behaves like this.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  How many cigarettes did you smoke per day as a teen? Would you smoke more or less if you could do it anywhere anytime?