7 ms·

China is still far behind modern lithography. It took ASML almost 2 decades to get from immersion DUV (and EUV prototypes) to commercial EUV machines.

Reptur 2mo ago
True but also catching up to an existing tech is a much different game than creating it from scratch. Hiring people who have the right knowledge can speed that up.
- seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
  The core stuff is under heavy lock and key. I’m not sure China can hire people that know the whole process, let alone the bits and pieces they can’t easily figure out on their own. The tech seems to have been locked down by a few western countries, and it’s hard to find any holes in their secrecy.
  - LIMEVINCE 2mo ago
    I'm not sure how true this is but I've read in other threads that ASML employs many Chinese engineers, and also read other news that the Chinese state is paying engineers working abroad at companies like ASML alluring salaries to get them to work back home.
    - seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
      You can employ as many engineers as you want but if you compartilize them enough and separate key processes to a very small group of people (Dutch citizens or whatever, maybe military), you can actually protect the process as a whole. It’s not like a nuclear bomb that even high school students can even figure out how to make without much help.
      - don_esteban 2mo ago
        The thing is that an expert in the area does not need the detailed how-to guide/complete description of the process. Few hints here and there can help to get over the key hurdles, with most other steps either a general knowledge for the experts, or analogues can be independently developed without too much trouble. Yes, the result is not the same, but actually developing indigenous expertise is the key required component anyway,
        seanmcdirmid 1mo ago
        China has a lot of bits and pieces of process but they are spending time to figure out how to put them together along with a few key locked up secrets that you just can’t get with smarts alone. They will definitely get there, but don’t be surprised if they come up with a very different solution because being derivative just wasn’t an option
  - the_sleaze_ 2mo ago
    Espionage
    - jona-f 2mo ago
      Nah, you watch too many movies, they openly hired former asml employees.
      - the_sleaze_ 1mo ago
        It's only a google away friend. > https://dominotheory.com/taiwan-issues-first-national-security-indictment-for-tsmc-leak-to-china/ https://dominotheory.com/taiwan-issues-first-national-securi...
sleepyguy 2mo ago
This, these news organizations have no f'n clue. China this, China that, it's all part of the 10 billion China spends on b.s to feed the Americans that they are behind or they are useless and that they don't stand a chance.... China is on the verge of collapse walking the razors edge.
- sumanthvepa 2mo ago
  Yes. China is behind on some of the crucial technology that gives the West its advantage, but this framing that the country is on the verge of collapse is just not true. Also recreating a know technology usually takes much less time even if you don't have access to the underlying tech.
- anigbrowl 2mo ago
  Schrödinger's economy https://thediplomat.com/2015/03/why-do-people-keep-predicting-chinas-collapse/ https://thediplomat.com/2015/03/why-do-people-keep-predictin...
  - sleepyguy 2mo ago
    [flagged]
    - defrost 2mo ago
      ^^Please don't do this^^ https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - sleepyguy 2mo ago
        Do you think they aren't here? It needs to be pointed out, so folks are aware.
        defrost 2mo ago
        Did you read the guidelines and grasp the intent? Do you think HN users are unable to form their own opinions? Would the forum be better if every comment came with a ship's hull infestation of remora opinions as to who is or isn't in someone's opinion a paedophile, an AI booster, a twat, a tool, a russian tankie, or simply just Tasmanian? What would be far better would be a comment of substance addressing the points made within a comment rather than ankle deep shallow name calling, unsubstantiated allegations, etc. In short, so what if someone is paid by China to promote certain viewpoints; address the issues rather than the dull fact that almost everybody here is either paid by someone or has a strong financial incentive toward something.
_ink_ 2mo ago
But isn't it easier to copy some existing approach than to create it from a green field? ASML tech is presumably highly protected, but China is also very good in spying, hacking etc.
- HWR_14 2mo ago
  Yes. But it's not as simple as just having access to ASML's ip. They have exclusive rights to all the components and inputs, which are also protected and are also hard to make. It's a whole system that China needs to duplicate.
- seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
  This stuff is really hard to copy. China basically had to put in all the cold era materials research along with getting up to speed on current tech, from scratch. They were/are always going to catch up because they have the resources to, but there are no shortcuts.
  - t-writescode 2mo ago
    The patent system is very strong evidence that there are shortcuts. So many that we have laws designed to protect and incentivize version 1. Sure, there’s some hard lessons along the way; but far, far, far fewer than figuring it out in the first place. And this misplaced assumption about how China won’t be able to innovate when standing on the shoulders of giants (with you saying ‘are always going to catch up’) looks only at the last 100 years and forgets the millenia before it. The West is not magically superior.
    - seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
      There are just some things that China can’t access and they have to reinvent on their own. Like 50 years of intensive materials research that is locked away in a safe and access is heavily restricted. Yes, China could innovate by standing on the shoulders of giants if they had access to the giants, they simply don’t have access.
xiphias2 2mo ago
Sure, and spent most of it experimenting with something nobody knew would work in production or not, and needed a lots of breakthrough ideas that are now known as the machines exist.
zelphirkalt 2mo ago
OK, China will do it in 5 years then.

Reptur 2mo ago

True but also catching up to an existing tech is a much different game than creating it from scratch. Hiring people who have the right knowledge can speed that up.

seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
The core stuff is under heavy lock and key. I’m not sure China can hire people that know the whole process, let alone the bits and pieces they can’t easily figure out on their own. The tech seems to have been locked down by a few western countries, and it’s hard to find any holes in their secrecy.
- LIMEVINCE 2mo ago
  I'm not sure how true this is but I've read in other threads that ASML employs many Chinese engineers, and also read other news that the Chinese state is paying engineers working abroad at companies like ASML alluring salaries to get them to work back home.
  - seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
    You can employ as many engineers as you want but if you compartilize them enough and separate key processes to a very small group of people (Dutch citizens or whatever, maybe military), you can actually protect the process as a whole. It’s not like a nuclear bomb that even high school students can even figure out how to make without much help.
    - don_esteban 2mo ago
      The thing is that an expert in the area does not need the detailed how-to guide/complete description of the process. Few hints here and there can help to get over the key hurdles, with most other steps either a general knowledge for the experts, or analogues can be independently developed without too much trouble. Yes, the result is not the same, but actually developing indigenous expertise is the key required component anyway,
      - seanmcdirmid 1mo ago
        China has a lot of bits and pieces of process but they are spending time to figure out how to put them together along with a few key locked up secrets that you just can’t get with smarts alone. They will definitely get there, but don’t be surprised if they come up with a very different solution because being derivative just wasn’t an option
- the_sleaze_ 2mo ago
  Espionage
  - jona-f 2mo ago
    Nah, you watch too many movies, they openly hired former asml employees.
    - the_sleaze_ 1mo ago
      It's only a google away friend. > https://dominotheory.com/taiwan-issues-first-national-security-indictment-for-tsmc-leak-to-china/ https://dominotheory.com/taiwan-issues-first-national-securi...

sleepyguy 2mo ago

This, these news organizations have no f'n clue. China this, China that, it's all part of the 10 billion China spends on b.s to feed the Americans that they are behind or they are useless and that they don't stand a chance.... China is on the verge of collapse walking the razors edge.

sumanthvepa 2mo ago
Yes. China is behind on some of the crucial technology that gives the West its advantage, but this framing that the country is on the verge of collapse is just not true. Also recreating a know technology usually takes much less time even if you don't have access to the underlying tech.
anigbrowl 2mo ago
Schrödinger's economy https://thediplomat.com/2015/03/why-do-people-keep-predicting-chinas-collapse/ https://thediplomat.com/2015/03/why-do-people-keep-predictin...
- sleepyguy 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - defrost 2mo ago
    ^^Please don't do this^^ https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - sleepyguy 2mo ago
      Do you think they aren't here? It needs to be pointed out, so folks are aware.
      - defrost 2mo ago
        Did you read the guidelines and grasp the intent? Do you think HN users are unable to form their own opinions? Would the forum be better if every comment came with a ship's hull infestation of remora opinions as to who is or isn't in someone's opinion a paedophile, an AI booster, a twat, a tool, a russian tankie, or simply just Tasmanian? What would be far better would be a comment of substance addressing the points made within a comment rather than ankle deep shallow name calling, unsubstantiated allegations, etc. In short, so what if someone is paid by China to promote certain viewpoints; address the issues rather than the dull fact that almost everybody here is either paid by someone or has a strong financial incentive toward something.

_ink_ 2mo ago

But isn't it easier to copy some existing approach than to create it from a green field? ASML tech is presumably highly protected, but China is also very good in spying, hacking etc.

HWR_14 2mo ago
Yes. But it's not as simple as just having access to ASML's ip. They have exclusive rights to all the components and inputs, which are also protected and are also hard to make. It's a whole system that China needs to duplicate.
seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
This stuff is really hard to copy. China basically had to put in all the cold era materials research along with getting up to speed on current tech, from scratch. They were/are always going to catch up because they have the resources to, but there are no shortcuts.
- t-writescode 2mo ago
  The patent system is very strong evidence that there are shortcuts. So many that we have laws designed to protect and incentivize version 1. Sure, there’s some hard lessons along the way; but far, far, far fewer than figuring it out in the first place. And this misplaced assumption about how China won’t be able to innovate when standing on the shoulders of giants (with you saying ‘are always going to catch up’) looks only at the last 100 years and forgets the millenia before it. The West is not magically superior.
  - seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
    There are just some things that China can’t access and they have to reinvent on their own. Like 50 years of intensive materials research that is locked away in a safe and access is heavily restricted. Yes, China could innovate by standing on the shoulders of giants if they had access to the giants, they simply don’t have access.

xiphias2 2mo ago

Sure, and spent most of it experimenting with something nobody knew would work in production or not, and needed a lots of breakthrough ideas that are now known as the machines exist.

zelphirkalt 2mo ago

OK, China will do it in 5 years then.