9 ms·

If you have been reading the news about Windows 11 then I will enlighten you -- they view the Windows 11 consumer business as a cost center that must be mitigat

by ihsw 2mo ago

If you have been reading the news about Windows 11 then I will enlighten you -- they view the Windows 11 consumer business as a cost center that must be mitigated. As such, all manner of monetization has been approved and it will continued to be approved without regard for user experience. This article obviates that this is not an LG problem, it is a Microsoft problem. Also, don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world.

Grombobulous 2mo ago
Just look at Microsoft’s revenue breakdown that they publish. Windows revenue is alarmingly small. I don’t think it’s a loss leader but Microsoft gets almost nothing from OEM Windows licenses and basically nobody buys it retail. This is not coming to the Linux world. The moment this sort of thing happens, distros get forked.
- geon 2mo ago
  Aren’t ms completely dependent on consumer windows for mindshare? I doubt anyone would bother getting into programming with ms tech unless they just happened to run it on their desktop.
  - eastbound 2mo ago
    MS owns Typescript and NPM and Azure and LinkedIn. I know you meant programming on Windows, but even if Windows disappears, many of us will owe our job to Microsoft.
    - solarkraft 2mo ago
      They own Typescript? I wasn’t aware that they control the organization, but that ought to be easy enough to fork. NPM is a bigger one, but also not too huge. Azure is only used by people who already have Microsoft/Windows buy-in.
      - chuckadams 2mo ago
        They created TypeScript, and maintain it now. It's not exactly a business for them, no one is buying "TypeScript Enterprise" subscriptions. It's all under the Apache License 2.0 and certainly big enough that if they started pulling anything untoward, it would see a fork. Sometimes Microsoft produces an unalloyed good, they're not a monolith.
      - embedding-shape 2mo ago
        > They own Typescript? I wasn’t aware that they control the organization, I genuinely don't know, got curious and went to typescriptlang.org to find some "About" page or "Governance" or something else, but couldn't find anything at all about it. It was exclusively developed by Microsoft for two years, and with no other clear governance/decision structure today as far as I can see, doesn't that exactly mean that Microsoft controls the entire "organization"? It's not clear what "organization" you're referring to either, the GitHub organization? I'd assume that's also 100% Microsoft controlled.
    - VorpalWay 2mo ago
      Dont forget they own github too. The vast majority of open source software is on there these days. Yes there are other options: gitlab.com, some project specific gitlab instances (freedesktop for example), forejo / codeberg, and the Linux kernel is off doing it's own thing with mailing lists instead. I even come across code on SourceForge every now and then still. But all of these are super niche.
    - SinkingRock 2mo ago
      And VS Code, and Github...
      - tosti 2mo ago
        Soooo... Not anything we couldn't miss.
  - ufmace 2mo ago
    I don't think they are anymore. The vast majority of ordinary person computer/internet use has already moved to smartphones, tablets, smart TVs and other such devices. It seems nowadays many people don't even know the basics about how to use a desktop operating system.
    - smelendez 2mo ago
      Right. Laptops are basically work (or school) tools now for a lot of people. They might have one tucked away that they pull out now and then when they need it, similar to a power drill or a sewing machine. It’s not a daily use device. I think it helped Microsoft historically that people used their operating systems at home, although even then a lot of people would have learned Windows at work or school first.
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
    - Aerroon 2mo ago
      I find this hard to believe considering how bad the UIs are on phones and TVs. Even google.com does not offer feature parity between their desktop and mobile websites. My phone still didn't come with a functional paint or notepad apps. Google docs is a horrible experience on phones (but at least it works now - a few years ago it was straight up unusable). And you're telling me that this is the only computing platform for a lot of people? How is everything still so unusable about it then? My experience tells me that everything mobile is basically an afterthought outside of a few dozen websites and I guess phone games.
      - picofarad 2mo ago
        My phone still doesn't have a calculator app. The thought of trying to add one that isnt wolfram alpha is anxiety-producing.
        Obscurity4340 2mo ago
        Calculator Note apps are much better anyway
  - Grombobulous 2mo ago
    Microsoft will happily sell you someone else’s tech stack on Azure. My macOS-using employer gives much more money to Microsoft than Apple. Cloud SaaS things they’re using: Entra ID, Power BI, Sharepoint, corporate email (365), OneDrive. Microsoft applications installed by my employer on my PC: Teams, Office including Outlook, Defender. Our applications are Java running on Linux and we could migrate 100% of our platform to Azure without any issue if we had a reason to do that.
- mrob 2mo ago
  >This is not coming to the Linux world. The moment this sort of thing happens, distros get forked. I installed Debian 13 recently. The first time I opened Firefox ESR (installed by default), I got something that looked like adverts on the home page (banner blindness means I have no memory of what they actually were, only of the feeling of disgust). The Home section of the Settings page had options for "Sponsored shortcuts" and "Sponsored stories" enabled by default. Changing a default setting is a lot easier than forking software, yet it was not done.
  - ekianjo 2mo ago
    thats entirely on Firefox
    - account42 2mo ago
      No, it's also on Debian for not disabling/removing that crap. Shielding the user from crapware (both the accidental and intentional kind) is the entire reason distribution maintainers exist in the first place.
  - Grombobulous 2mo ago
    Rather than complaining to you that Firefox isn’t Linux, I’ll point out that Firefox is a great example. LibreWolf was forked to deal with the exact situation you describe.
necovek 2mo ago
As long as you have a computer that can run unsigned software, or software signed by yourself, this won't come to Linux as non-optional features: you can always recompile your kernel removing things you do not want like this.
- tosti 2mo ago
  And before anyone goes "but I can't patch that!", all it takes is one clever guy to write the patch. This is also why the bazaar model of Linux distributions is beneficial. You get more choice.
- numpad0 2mo ago
  Ubuntu snap
  - drnick1 2mo ago
    Just use Debian. It's just as easy to install and use nowadays, and does not come with bloatware/malware.
    - ErroneousBosh 2mo ago
      Neither does Ubuntu.
      - NopIdoN 2mo ago
        snaps auto-update
        ErroneousBosh 2mo ago
        Yes, and?
        NopIdoN 2mo ago
        and "minimal" ubuntu install is like 12GB
treyd 2mo ago
> don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world. I'm curious what you mean by this. I'm not necessarily rejecting the point, but I also don't see how this could happen without substantial shifts in the industry first.
- evilduck 2mo ago
  Yeah, curious here too. Torvalds would need to pass first I think, and I just don't see other major players like RedHat, Google, Canonical, or Valve introducing this themselves or agreeing to do it in aggregate. And as end users we could still fork and patch it out. Some shitty company might try but I don't think it would stand.
  - mixmastamyk 2mo ago
    Lots of bad ideas have come to Linux, like non-consensual telemetry, mobile-first interfaces etc. Don’t believe? Run OpenSnitch. Traditional CADT means features get lost over time. It is not immune from these forces, just not a focus by the powers that be. Fewer developers remember the good old days of Y2Kas as well, meaning they don’t resist these forces instinctively, since they grew up in iOS captivity.
    - hparadiz 2mo ago
      Telemetry is anything including a process list. If you're talking about eBPF it's also used for debugging and server fleets and recently in basic task managers. Any data can be used to take a magnifying glass to the system. The kernel has literally thousands of toggles for this from networking to threading. And yes a program can see what your kernel supports and yes it can refuse to run if you're not running a specific kernel with a specific feature. How do you think programs like open snitch even work? https://github.com/evilsocket/opensnitch/wiki/monitor-method-ebpf https://github.com/evilsocket/opensnitch/wiki/monitor-method...
      - mixmastamyk 2mo ago
        How do you think they work? I’m talking about mostly about consent above, maybe wasn’t clear.
kstrauser 2mo ago
It hasn’t come for the much larger Mac world yet. I think literally the only driver I’ve installed for any accessory of any kind is the config utility for a Stream Deck. I certainly never install mouse (thank you Steermouse!) or printer drivers, let alone a monitor driver of all things.
account42 2mo ago
> Also, don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world. What Linux world? It may come to Ubuntu (they already tried other monetization crapware) but win Linux you always have other options.

by ihsw 2mo ago

Grombobulous 2mo ago

Just look at Microsoft’s revenue breakdown that they publish. Windows revenue is alarmingly small. I don’t think it’s a loss leader but Microsoft gets almost nothing from OEM Windows licenses and basically nobody buys it retail. This is not coming to the Linux world. The moment this sort of thing happens, distros get forked.

geon 2mo ago
Aren’t ms completely dependent on consumer windows for mindshare? I doubt anyone would bother getting into programming with ms tech unless they just happened to run it on their desktop.
- eastbound 2mo ago
  MS owns Typescript and NPM and Azure and LinkedIn. I know you meant programming on Windows, but even if Windows disappears, many of us will owe our job to Microsoft.
  - solarkraft 2mo ago
    They own Typescript? I wasn’t aware that they control the organization, but that ought to be easy enough to fork. NPM is a bigger one, but also not too huge. Azure is only used by people who already have Microsoft/Windows buy-in.
    - chuckadams 2mo ago
      They created TypeScript, and maintain it now. It's not exactly a business for them, no one is buying "TypeScript Enterprise" subscriptions. It's all under the Apache License 2.0 and certainly big enough that if they started pulling anything untoward, it would see a fork. Sometimes Microsoft produces an unalloyed good, they're not a monolith.
    - embedding-shape 2mo ago
      > They own Typescript? I wasn’t aware that they control the organization, I genuinely don't know, got curious and went to typescriptlang.org to find some "About" page or "Governance" or something else, but couldn't find anything at all about it. It was exclusively developed by Microsoft for two years, and with no other clear governance/decision structure today as far as I can see, doesn't that exactly mean that Microsoft controls the entire "organization"? It's not clear what "organization" you're referring to either, the GitHub organization? I'd assume that's also 100% Microsoft controlled.
  - VorpalWay 2mo ago
    Dont forget they own github too. The vast majority of open source software is on there these days. Yes there are other options: gitlab.com, some project specific gitlab instances (freedesktop for example), forejo / codeberg, and the Linux kernel is off doing it's own thing with mailing lists instead. I even come across code on SourceForge every now and then still. But all of these are super niche.
  - SinkingRock 2mo ago
    And VS Code, and Github...
    - tosti 2mo ago
      Soooo... Not anything we couldn't miss.
- ufmace 2mo ago
  I don't think they are anymore. The vast majority of ordinary person computer/internet use has already moved to smartphones, tablets, smart TVs and other such devices. It seems nowadays many people don't even know the basics about how to use a desktop operating system.
  - smelendez 2mo ago
    Right. Laptops are basically work (or school) tools now for a lot of people. They might have one tucked away that they pull out now and then when they need it, similar to a power drill or a sewing machine. It’s not a daily use device. I think it helped Microsoft historically that people used their operating systems at home, although even then a lot of people would have learned Windows at work or school first.
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - Aerroon 2mo ago
    I find this hard to believe considering how bad the UIs are on phones and TVs. Even google.com does not offer feature parity between their desktop and mobile websites. My phone still didn't come with a functional paint or notepad apps. Google docs is a horrible experience on phones (but at least it works now - a few years ago it was straight up unusable). And you're telling me that this is the only computing platform for a lot of people? How is everything still so unusable about it then? My experience tells me that everything mobile is basically an afterthought outside of a few dozen websites and I guess phone games.
    - picofarad 2mo ago
      My phone still doesn't have a calculator app. The thought of trying to add one that isnt wolfram alpha is anxiety-producing.
      - Obscurity4340 2mo ago
        Calculator Note apps are much better anyway
- Grombobulous 2mo ago
  Microsoft will happily sell you someone else’s tech stack on Azure. My macOS-using employer gives much more money to Microsoft than Apple. Cloud SaaS things they’re using: Entra ID, Power BI, Sharepoint, corporate email (365), OneDrive. Microsoft applications installed by my employer on my PC: Teams, Office including Outlook, Defender. Our applications are Java running on Linux and we could migrate 100% of our platform to Azure without any issue if we had a reason to do that.
mrob 2mo ago
>This is not coming to the Linux world. The moment this sort of thing happens, distros get forked. I installed Debian 13 recently. The first time I opened Firefox ESR (installed by default), I got something that looked like adverts on the home page (banner blindness means I have no memory of what they actually were, only of the feeling of disgust). The Home section of the Settings page had options for "Sponsored shortcuts" and "Sponsored stories" enabled by default. Changing a default setting is a lot easier than forking software, yet it was not done.
- ekianjo 2mo ago
  thats entirely on Firefox
  - account42 2mo ago
    No, it's also on Debian for not disabling/removing that crap. Shielding the user from crapware (both the accidental and intentional kind) is the entire reason distribution maintainers exist in the first place.
- Grombobulous 2mo ago
  Rather than complaining to you that Firefox isn’t Linux, I’ll point out that Firefox is a great example. LibreWolf was forked to deal with the exact situation you describe.

necovek 2mo ago

As long as you have a computer that can run unsigned software, or software signed by yourself, this won't come to Linux as non-optional features: you can always recompile your kernel removing things you do not want like this.

tosti 2mo ago
And before anyone goes "but I can't patch that!", all it takes is one clever guy to write the patch. This is also why the bazaar model of Linux distributions is beneficial. You get more choice.
numpad0 2mo ago
Ubuntu snap
- drnick1 2mo ago
  Just use Debian. It's just as easy to install and use nowadays, and does not come with bloatware/malware.
  - ErroneousBosh 2mo ago
    Neither does Ubuntu.
    - NopIdoN 2mo ago
      snaps auto-update
      - ErroneousBosh 2mo ago
        Yes, and?
        NopIdoN 2mo ago
        and "minimal" ubuntu install is like 12GB

treyd 2mo ago

> don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world. I'm curious what you mean by this. I'm not necessarily rejecting the point, but I also don't see how this could happen without substantial shifts in the industry first.

evilduck 2mo ago
Yeah, curious here too. Torvalds would need to pass first I think, and I just don't see other major players like RedHat, Google, Canonical, or Valve introducing this themselves or agreeing to do it in aggregate. And as end users we could still fork and patch it out. Some shitty company might try but I don't think it would stand.
- mixmastamyk 2mo ago
  Lots of bad ideas have come to Linux, like non-consensual telemetry, mobile-first interfaces etc. Don’t believe? Run OpenSnitch. Traditional CADT means features get lost over time. It is not immune from these forces, just not a focus by the powers that be. Fewer developers remember the good old days of Y2Kas as well, meaning they don’t resist these forces instinctively, since they grew up in iOS captivity.
  - hparadiz 2mo ago
    Telemetry is anything including a process list. If you're talking about eBPF it's also used for debugging and server fleets and recently in basic task managers. Any data can be used to take a magnifying glass to the system. The kernel has literally thousands of toggles for this from networking to threading. And yes a program can see what your kernel supports and yes it can refuse to run if you're not running a specific kernel with a specific feature. How do you think programs like open snitch even work? https://github.com/evilsocket/opensnitch/wiki/monitor-method-ebpf https://github.com/evilsocket/opensnitch/wiki/monitor-method...
    - mixmastamyk 2mo ago
      How do you think they work? I’m talking about mostly about consent above, maybe wasn’t clear.

kstrauser 2mo ago

It hasn’t come for the much larger Mac world yet. I think literally the only driver I’ve installed for any accessory of any kind is the config utility for a Stream Deck. I certainly never install mouse (thank you Steermouse!) or printer drivers, let alone a monitor driver of all things.

account42 2mo ago

> Also, don't fool yourself if you think this won't come to the Linux world. What Linux world? It may come to Ubuntu (they already tried other monetization crapware) but win Linux you always have other options.