7 ms·

>I don't know what Microsoft is thinking even allowing and enabling this sort of thing This has been a feature since Windows 7, and it worked great since it wo

>I don't know what Microsoft is thinking even allowing and enabling this sort of thing This has been a feature since Windows 7, and it worked great since it would pull all necessary drivers after installation without you going hunting on the internet like in the Windows XP days. Just that no HW manufacturer thought to push spyware in their driver repos at that point to improve some team's KPIs.

coldtea 2mo ago
>and it worked great since it would pull all necessary drivers after installation without you going hunting on the internet like in the Windows XP days. A driver shouldn't be a front-facing program that shows ads of any kind. It should be sandboxed and follow strict APIs to talk to the OS and that's it - any extra options should be shown inline in the main e.g. printer or mouse dialog.
- threetonesun 2mo ago
  And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? I think extra options in an app is fine, but you should have to download it. At which point who knows what you’ve opened yourself to but at least you chose to do it.
  - solarkraft 2mo ago
    Yes! Extra apps suck.
  - VorpalWay 2mo ago
    > And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? Actually, why not? The driver could declare a list/tree of extra configurable options, and windows could generate a configuration dialog for them. I think this is already is thing in Windows for NICs, I remember seeing TCP offload options when I go into properties for a NIC in the device manager. You just need to make it a bit more accessible to non-tech users and with more modern control options such as colour wheels for RGB. And the Linux software for these sort of devices (when such software exist) don't tend to be as bloated. Usually the driver just exposes some control files under /sys and someone else builds a GUI or such on top. But there is no reason you couldn't also expose a schema that describes what the options do to make a more generic GUI for those.
    - threetonesun 2mo ago
      As a user I agree, but I think this misunderstands the Windows market. Forget about mice for a second, if you look at GPU drivers between Linux and Windows on Linux they... just work, and you can use some apps to modify exposed features, like you said. On Windows out of the box they kind of work, but you really need a manufacturer's software suite to take full advantage of them, and that software suite is, surprise, an advertising and analytics platform, a situation I think both Microsoft and the peripheral manufacturers are very happy with.
      - coldtea 2mo ago
        >On Windows out of the box they kind of work, but you really need a manufacturer's software suite to take full advantage of them, and that software suite is, surprise, an advertising and analytics platform, a situation I think both Microsoft and the peripheral manufacturers are very happy with. What we're saying is this shouldn't be allowed by the OS to begin with. Not to merely use the peripheral in any case. Whether Microsoft is happy with allowing it, is another matter. Perhaps some law accompanied with hefty fines can make them less happy doing it.
  - LucasOe 2mo ago
    Drivers should just make my stuff work. If I want to configure my hardware, I download the app from the manufacturer's website.
  - isityettime 2mo ago
    Configurable peripherals should store their configurations entirely on-board, and they should be configurable using a well-understood protocol. Users can then use either the vendor's application, a common third-party application, or the configuration interface native to their desktop environment to configure them. When they plug them into a new machine, they should just keep working without having to install any configuration software. Many generations of Roccat peripherals were usable this way on Linux, thanks to the work of one generous volunteer who reverse-engineered them. Companies like Logitech don't store their devices' configs in firmware in a way that "forces" you to run some additional shit to use all of their features (some features aren't implemented in software). It's a convenient excuse that allows them to push their spyware onto users, but it's totally unnecessary. A vendor that was actually "user friendly" in the deep sense (opposite of "user hostile") would do this themselves; configuration would be upstream-first via libratbagd or whatever, and then they'd provide their own configuration interface as a value-add for a uniform cross-platform experience, or in areas where they thought they could provide a better UI than the design principles of KDE and GNOME, or so that they could have a uniform interface to refer to in their documentation.
  - coldtea 2mo ago
    >And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? Yes. Via some standard protocol to show checkboxes, radio buttons, drop down selections, etc.
- michaelmrose 2mo ago
  Linux users think of a driver as the thing that makes my silently hardware do the existing things its supposed to do like every other item in its class. Windows users think of the driver as what makes the hardware do what everything in its class does but subtly different and somehow glued to a command center with its own unique and bad GUI auto started, in the tray, with its own update schedule, and ads.
- MatejKafka 2mo ago
  How exactly do you propose to sandbox drivers running in kernel space? Do you even know how drivers work? (I'm guessing no, based on this comment)
  - masfuerte 2mo ago
    The User-Mode Driver Framework is a thing. Most plug-in devices do not need (or have) a kernel-mode driver.
    - MatejKafka 2mo ago
      Yes, but unless all 3rd party drivers can run in userspace (which is not really feasible), Microsoft needs to give vendors the option to install a kernel driver, at which point a vendor can always decide to ship a kernel driver and bypass any restrictions. Imo, the only thing Microsoft can meaningfully do here from their side is threaten LG with pulling all their drivers if they keep doing this.
      - dwattttt 2mo ago
        Drivers still need to pass certification & get signed. Microsoft does get to reject them. I can't imagine the group doing this validation is sufficiently manned/funded; it's a cost centre, and the effects of cutting it don't show up for years.
        MatejKafka 2mo ago
        I expect that process to be mostly automated, I wouldn't expect the MS folks at the testing lab to do much (if any) manual testing, especially for a new version of a previously approved driver. I'm not surprised that the driver got approved, especially if the previous versions already had some user UI and this update "just" added the ads. What I would hope now is for MS to either pull the updated driver or ask LG to roll the change back themselves, possibly under the thread of pulling their drivers altogether (iirc they done that with other companies in the past).
  - 2mo ago
wat10000 2mo ago
Auto-run when inserting a CD worked great, until people realized you could do bad stuff with it. User action must be required to run or install new software.
- jayd16 2mo ago
  OK so you get a pop-up that says "install driver or it won't work" and so you do and then you're at the same situation.
  - wat10000 2mo ago
    Or you don’t and you return this piece of garbage for a refund. I hope you can see how this is much superior to auto-installing malware.
marcosdumay 2mo ago
> Just that no HW manufacturer thought to push spyware in their driver repos at that point to improve some team's KPIs. Except for every printer, some popular GPUs, Microsoft's peripherals...

coldtea 2mo ago

>and it worked great since it would pull all necessary drivers after installation without you going hunting on the internet like in the Windows XP days. A driver shouldn't be a front-facing program that shows ads of any kind. It should be sandboxed and follow strict APIs to talk to the OS and that's it - any extra options should be shown inline in the main e.g. printer or mouse dialog.

threetonesun 2mo ago
And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? I think extra options in an app is fine, but you should have to download it. At which point who knows what you’ve opened yourself to but at least you chose to do it.
- solarkraft 2mo ago
  Yes! Extra apps suck.
- VorpalWay 2mo ago
  > And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? Actually, why not? The driver could declare a list/tree of extra configurable options, and windows could generate a configuration dialog for them. I think this is already is thing in Windows for NICs, I remember seeing TCP offload options when I go into properties for a NIC in the device manager. You just need to make it a bit more accessible to non-tech users and with more modern control options such as colour wheels for RGB. And the Linux software for these sort of devices (when such software exist) don't tend to be as bloated. Usually the driver just exposes some control files under /sys and someone else builds a GUI or such on top. But there is no reason you couldn't also expose a schema that describes what the options do to make a more generic GUI for those.
  - threetonesun 2mo ago
    As a user I agree, but I think this misunderstands the Windows market. Forget about mice for a second, if you look at GPU drivers between Linux and Windows on Linux they... just work, and you can use some apps to modify exposed features, like you said. On Windows out of the box they kind of work, but you really need a manufacturer's software suite to take full advantage of them, and that software suite is, surprise, an advertising and analytics platform, a situation I think both Microsoft and the peripheral manufacturers are very happy with.
    - coldtea 2mo ago
      >On Windows out of the box they kind of work, but you really need a manufacturer's software suite to take full advantage of them, and that software suite is, surprise, an advertising and analytics platform, a situation I think both Microsoft and the peripheral manufacturers are very happy with. What we're saying is this shouldn't be allowed by the OS to begin with. Not to merely use the peripheral in any case. Whether Microsoft is happy with allowing it, is another matter. Perhaps some law accompanied with hefty fines can make them less happy doing it.
- LucasOe 2mo ago
  Drivers should just make my stuff work. If I want to configure my hardware, I download the app from the manufacturer's website.
- isityettime 2mo ago
  Configurable peripherals should store their configurations entirely on-board, and they should be configurable using a well-understood protocol. Users can then use either the vendor's application, a common third-party application, or the configuration interface native to their desktop environment to configure them. When they plug them into a new machine, they should just keep working without having to install any configuration software. Many generations of Roccat peripherals were usable this way on Linux, thanks to the work of one generous volunteer who reverse-engineered them. Companies like Logitech don't store their devices' configs in firmware in a way that "forces" you to run some additional shit to use all of their features (some features aren't implemented in software). It's a convenient excuse that allows them to push their spyware onto users, but it's totally unnecessary. A vendor that was actually "user friendly" in the deep sense (opposite of "user hostile") would do this themselves; configuration would be upstream-first via libratbagd or whatever, and then they'd provide their own configuration interface as a value-add for a uniform cross-platform experience, or in areas where they thought they could provide a better UI than the design principles of KDE and GNOME, or so that they could have a uniform interface to refer to in their documentation.
- coldtea 2mo ago
  >And then what, ever single gaming mouse/keyboard config is going to appear in the Windows UI dialog? Yes. Via some standard protocol to show checkboxes, radio buttons, drop down selections, etc.
michaelmrose 2mo ago
Linux users think of a driver as the thing that makes my silently hardware do the existing things its supposed to do like every other item in its class. Windows users think of the driver as what makes the hardware do what everything in its class does but subtly different and somehow glued to a command center with its own unique and bad GUI auto started, in the tray, with its own update schedule, and ads.
MatejKafka 2mo ago
How exactly do you propose to sandbox drivers running in kernel space? Do you even know how drivers work? (I'm guessing no, based on this comment)
- masfuerte 2mo ago
  The User-Mode Driver Framework is a thing. Most plug-in devices do not need (or have) a kernel-mode driver.
  - MatejKafka 2mo ago
    Yes, but unless all 3rd party drivers can run in userspace (which is not really feasible), Microsoft needs to give vendors the option to install a kernel driver, at which point a vendor can always decide to ship a kernel driver and bypass any restrictions. Imo, the only thing Microsoft can meaningfully do here from their side is threaten LG with pulling all their drivers if they keep doing this.
    - dwattttt 2mo ago
      Drivers still need to pass certification & get signed. Microsoft does get to reject them. I can't imagine the group doing this validation is sufficiently manned/funded; it's a cost centre, and the effects of cutting it don't show up for years.
      - MatejKafka 2mo ago
        I expect that process to be mostly automated, I wouldn't expect the MS folks at the testing lab to do much (if any) manual testing, especially for a new version of a previously approved driver. I'm not surprised that the driver got approved, especially if the previous versions already had some user UI and this update "just" added the ads. What I would hope now is for MS to either pull the updated driver or ask LG to roll the change back themselves, possibly under the thread of pulling their drivers altogether (iirc they done that with other companies in the past).
- 2mo ago

wat10000 2mo ago

Auto-run when inserting a CD worked great, until people realized you could do bad stuff with it. User action must be required to run or install new software.

jayd16 2mo ago
OK so you get a pop-up that says "install driver or it won't work" and so you do and then you're at the same situation.
- wat10000 2mo ago
  Or you don’t and you return this piece of garbage for a refund. I hope you can see how this is much superior to auto-installing malware.

marcosdumay 2mo ago

> Just that no HW manufacturer thought to push spyware in their driver repos at that point to improve some team's KPIs. Except for every printer, some popular GPUs, Microsoft's peripherals...