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The film won't mark generations like Interstellar but is far from being silly. This is a deliberate interpretation of the Odyssey with a very interresting appr

The film won't mark generations like Interstellar but is far from being silly. This is a deliberate interpretation of the Odyssey with a very interresting approach IMO: can a man who destroys a whole civilization can come back home as a hero ? The main theme is about shame and how to deal with it. The film is really pretty good and far above any avg blockbuster.

nephihaha 2mo ago
In those days, people did not have many qualms about such things. The Romans destroyed Carthage long after this was written, and expressed little regret over having done so.
- snickerbockers 2mo ago
  Ancient literature is so fucking wild because the value systems were unlike anything that exists today. My favorite example is in the old testament when God sends a couple angels to Lot and a large mob of sodomites (people from the city of sodom, although they probably satisfy both definitions of the word) converge upon him and demand to rape the angels. Lot immediately attempts to negotiate by offering to let the mob to rape his own daughters in lieu of the angels. The mob denies this generous offer so the angels drive them away under their own power, thus calling into question why Lot felt the need to offer his daughter's unto a large mob of literal sodomites. The angels tell him to leave because God is planning to destroy the entire city, and somehow Lot is actually being spared since he is somehow the only righteous man in Sodom. He is warned not to look back at the city as he departs, but his wife foolishly disobey this instruction and is immediately transformed into a pillar of salt as one would expect. Then later they're out in the wilderness where there are no men and the two daughters are getting hot and bothered so they drug the recently-widowed Lot and rape him, becoming impregnatedin the process. In all fairness I think the implication behind that last plot development was a sort of abramhic version of karma since Lot is an extremely unsympathetic character despite somehow also being righteous enough to merit being spared the fires of sodom. However given what I know about how incest usually works in the modern world i can't help but wonder if (assuming this is at least partially based on true events) we're actually just getting Lot's side of the story after he inexplicably emerges from the wilderness with two grandchildren and no other sources of paternity. Anyways the bronze age is one helluva drug.
  - graemep 2mo ago
    There are bits of this that are at odds with current value systems, but also bits that accord with them. Offering them his own daughters as victims definitely does appal anyone today, and I guess comes from a strong culture of obligation to guests - before your self or your family. Lot did not know they were angels so did not know the alternative existed. On the other hand they agree with us that gang rape is very wrong. The pillar of salt thing and the destruction of the city are weird. On the other hand there are many modern examples of people wanting to destroy a place or a people they believe to be wicked. The incest is presented as something they did, not as morally right. I like your interpretation of getting Lot's side of the story, but not too literally as this was an oral tradition that was only written down much later. There are many wildly different value systems in the world today. None that say gang rape is fine, but many will blame the victims.
    - nephihaha 2mo ago
      It may be because in those days that daughters were seen as a means of forming ties with various mens' families through children. Either way, there is a strange ending to this story which is that Lot's daughters got him drunk and seduced him.
  - Anthony-G 2mo ago
    As a devout Catholic, I used my confirmation money to buy a bible and read from it every morning. Some parts of The Old Testament were disturbing but this story really shocked my younger self. I found it to be both horrific and bizarre. Until I started reading the bible myself, I had unquestioningly accepted everything my elders (parents and teachers) had told me but reading stories like this made me start to question my beliefs and over the next 15 years I gradually believed less and less (progressing from Catholic to Christian to theist to deist to atheist).
    - rsynnott 2mo ago
      I mean, there’s a _reason_ that the Church was historically not keen on the general public reading it for themselves.
- watwut 2mo ago
  - Nazi also killed and destroyed a lot and had not regrets. - We are creating a lot of entertainment about cool sociopaths with no regrets too. None of that means regret does not exist in individuals these days nor in 20th century. And ancient people did in fact expressed regrets.
  - graemep 2mo ago
    You are right, of course, but there all sorts of nuances to this. The Nazis wanted to return to ancient values, specifically the values they perceived as those of the classical world. Himmler thought Christianity was a plot by Paul to undermine the Roman Empire and aimed to eliminate the 10 Commandments. Hitler cited Sparta as an example of the sort of society he wanted to create.
    - watwut 2mo ago
      I mean, yeah, mythical Sparta is the place worshipped by fascists of all times, including their own times. When you see people celebrating Sparta, you likely see fascists on the rise. But also, there were plenty of Christian and Catholic Nazi. Catholic priests (outside of Germany) actively worked toward Nazi project. Commandments are always malleable, including the "tho shall not kill" one. By the way, the recently excommunicated catholic priests group was started by a French catholic Nazi. And by all I have see, they kept with the founders tradition. Hitler was not historian. He had selective imagination based reading of history. Him constructing an idea of "ancient people who have no empathy and no regrets" does not imply ancient people were all with no regrets and no empathy. It just implies empathy and regrets were in the way of the racial purity and world domination project.
      - graemep 2mo ago
        > But also, there were plenty of Christian and Catholic Nazi. The Catholic Church condemned Nazi ideology in the 1930s and said racism is incompatible with Christianity. The story of the papal encyclical is quite interesting. Lots of priests ended up in prisons of concentration camps. The Nazis were determined to specifically get rid of Christian values. They invented two new religions to try and replace it: Nazi neo-paganism and Positive Christianity. Hitler was not a historian and hugely misinterpreted history, but the Nazi view of Sparta was not just a myth. Sparta was literally a society based on a racial hierarchy, with the Spartans structuring their society around keeping control of the helots.
epolanski 2mo ago
And as the economist points out this is really an interpretation of our times because in no part of the Odyssey (which I've read) there is such an emphasis, it's all about coming home.
- nephihaha 2mo ago
  That's my interpretation. He's trying to get back to Penelope, and has bizarre adventures on the way.
  - amanaplanacanal 2mo ago
    Wait, he cares about Penelope? I thought he just wanted to get back to his kingdom.
    - krapp 2mo ago
      I liked Angela Collier's video essay about the Odyssey[0] (ostensibly about casting a Muppet version but more generally about the issues involved with adaptations in general), where she points out that modern audiences want the Odyssey to be a romance but that just isn't how ancient Greek culture worked. Odysseus and Penelope are nobles, their relationship isn't based on romance or love, it's transactional, it's about the business of entitlement and Penelope is the currency. Of course this is an issue with adapting all ancient myths - dealing with the cultural dissonance. Odysseus, our hero, on returning home, has his female slaves killed because they were defiled by his suitors, when their bodies were his by right. This is treated as as a virtue, part of Odysseus reestablishing his rightful authority. A modern retelling could explore that dissonance a bit, with the cruel caprice of both gods and kings, and be interesting, but not popular. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdh-sn1Ino8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdh-sn1Ino8
      - watwut 2mo ago
        > This is treated as as a virtue, part of Odysseus reestablishing his rightful authority. Treating it is a virtue is very much translation dependent aspect. Some translations treats them as guilty sluts, but not all. It is a thing he does, but not necessary "virtuous" thing. Also, Penelope is actively defending her faith to him. She did not had to, she could marry a suitor and save herself a trouble. Historical arranged marriage are not romances, but people grow to have relationships to each other. People do care, just like we care about cousins, siblings or other unchoosen groups. It can grow to hate and abuse too, but those are not present in Odyssey.
caidan 2mo ago
I don’t know, Interstellar is one of the silliest movies I’ve ever seen…
- AngryData 2mo ago
  Yeah I really don't get the praise for it. I doubt ill ever have the desire to watch it again.
warumdarum 2mo ago
Some of us go to the cinema for escapism. Notsome bdsm guilt cult thing. But then maybe its me and fetish fims are mainstream now.
otekengineering 2mo ago
Ender's Game did a pretty good job of answering that question

nephihaha 2mo ago

In those days, people did not have many qualms about such things. The Romans destroyed Carthage long after this was written, and expressed little regret over having done so.

snickerbockers 2mo ago
Ancient literature is so fucking wild because the value systems were unlike anything that exists today. My favorite example is in the old testament when God sends a couple angels to Lot and a large mob of sodomites (people from the city of sodom, although they probably satisfy both definitions of the word) converge upon him and demand to rape the angels. Lot immediately attempts to negotiate by offering to let the mob to rape his own daughters in lieu of the angels. The mob denies this generous offer so the angels drive them away under their own power, thus calling into question why Lot felt the need to offer his daughter's unto a large mob of literal sodomites. The angels tell him to leave because God is planning to destroy the entire city, and somehow Lot is actually being spared since he is somehow the only righteous man in Sodom. He is warned not to look back at the city as he departs, but his wife foolishly disobey this instruction and is immediately transformed into a pillar of salt as one would expect. Then later they're out in the wilderness where there are no men and the two daughters are getting hot and bothered so they drug the recently-widowed Lot and rape him, becoming impregnatedin the process. In all fairness I think the implication behind that last plot development was a sort of abramhic version of karma since Lot is an extremely unsympathetic character despite somehow also being righteous enough to merit being spared the fires of sodom. However given what I know about how incest usually works in the modern world i can't help but wonder if (assuming this is at least partially based on true events) we're actually just getting Lot's side of the story after he inexplicably emerges from the wilderness with two grandchildren and no other sources of paternity. Anyways the bronze age is one helluva drug.
- graemep 2mo ago
  There are bits of this that are at odds with current value systems, but also bits that accord with them. Offering them his own daughters as victims definitely does appal anyone today, and I guess comes from a strong culture of obligation to guests - before your self or your family. Lot did not know they were angels so did not know the alternative existed. On the other hand they agree with us that gang rape is very wrong. The pillar of salt thing and the destruction of the city are weird. On the other hand there are many modern examples of people wanting to destroy a place or a people they believe to be wicked. The incest is presented as something they did, not as morally right. I like your interpretation of getting Lot's side of the story, but not too literally as this was an oral tradition that was only written down much later. There are many wildly different value systems in the world today. None that say gang rape is fine, but many will blame the victims.
  - nephihaha 2mo ago
    It may be because in those days that daughters were seen as a means of forming ties with various mens' families through children. Either way, there is a strange ending to this story which is that Lot's daughters got him drunk and seduced him.
- Anthony-G 2mo ago
  As a devout Catholic, I used my confirmation money to buy a bible and read from it every morning. Some parts of The Old Testament were disturbing but this story really shocked my younger self. I found it to be both horrific and bizarre. Until I started reading the bible myself, I had unquestioningly accepted everything my elders (parents and teachers) had told me but reading stories like this made me start to question my beliefs and over the next 15 years I gradually believed less and less (progressing from Catholic to Christian to theist to deist to atheist).
  - rsynnott 2mo ago
    I mean, there’s a _reason_ that the Church was historically not keen on the general public reading it for themselves.
watwut 2mo ago
- Nazi also killed and destroyed a lot and had not regrets. - We are creating a lot of entertainment about cool sociopaths with no regrets too. None of that means regret does not exist in individuals these days nor in 20th century. And ancient people did in fact expressed regrets.
- graemep 2mo ago
  You are right, of course, but there all sorts of nuances to this. The Nazis wanted to return to ancient values, specifically the values they perceived as those of the classical world. Himmler thought Christianity was a plot by Paul to undermine the Roman Empire and aimed to eliminate the 10 Commandments. Hitler cited Sparta as an example of the sort of society he wanted to create.
  - watwut 2mo ago
    I mean, yeah, mythical Sparta is the place worshipped by fascists of all times, including their own times. When you see people celebrating Sparta, you likely see fascists on the rise. But also, there were plenty of Christian and Catholic Nazi. Catholic priests (outside of Germany) actively worked toward Nazi project. Commandments are always malleable, including the "tho shall not kill" one. By the way, the recently excommunicated catholic priests group was started by a French catholic Nazi. And by all I have see, they kept with the founders tradition. Hitler was not historian. He had selective imagination based reading of history. Him constructing an idea of "ancient people who have no empathy and no regrets" does not imply ancient people were all with no regrets and no empathy. It just implies empathy and regrets were in the way of the racial purity and world domination project.
    - graemep 2mo ago
      > But also, there were plenty of Christian and Catholic Nazi. The Catholic Church condemned Nazi ideology in the 1930s and said racism is incompatible with Christianity. The story of the papal encyclical is quite interesting. Lots of priests ended up in prisons of concentration camps. The Nazis were determined to specifically get rid of Christian values. They invented two new religions to try and replace it: Nazi neo-paganism and Positive Christianity. Hitler was not a historian and hugely misinterpreted history, but the Nazi view of Sparta was not just a myth. Sparta was literally a society based on a racial hierarchy, with the Spartans structuring their society around keeping control of the helots.

epolanski 2mo ago

And as the economist points out this is really an interpretation of our times because in no part of the Odyssey (which I've read) there is such an emphasis, it's all about coming home.

nephihaha 2mo ago
That's my interpretation. He's trying to get back to Penelope, and has bizarre adventures on the way.
- amanaplanacanal 2mo ago
  Wait, he cares about Penelope? I thought he just wanted to get back to his kingdom.
  - krapp 2mo ago
    I liked Angela Collier's video essay about the Odyssey[0] (ostensibly about casting a Muppet version but more generally about the issues involved with adaptations in general), where she points out that modern audiences want the Odyssey to be a romance but that just isn't how ancient Greek culture worked. Odysseus and Penelope are nobles, their relationship isn't based on romance or love, it's transactional, it's about the business of entitlement and Penelope is the currency. Of course this is an issue with adapting all ancient myths - dealing with the cultural dissonance. Odysseus, our hero, on returning home, has his female slaves killed because they were defiled by his suitors, when their bodies were his by right. This is treated as as a virtue, part of Odysseus reestablishing his rightful authority. A modern retelling could explore that dissonance a bit, with the cruel caprice of both gods and kings, and be interesting, but not popular. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdh-sn1Ino8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdh-sn1Ino8
    - watwut 2mo ago
      > This is treated as as a virtue, part of Odysseus reestablishing his rightful authority. Treating it is a virtue is very much translation dependent aspect. Some translations treats them as guilty sluts, but not all. It is a thing he does, but not necessary "virtuous" thing. Also, Penelope is actively defending her faith to him. She did not had to, she could marry a suitor and save herself a trouble. Historical arranged marriage are not romances, but people grow to have relationships to each other. People do care, just like we care about cousins, siblings or other unchoosen groups. It can grow to hate and abuse too, but those are not present in Odyssey.

caidan 2mo ago

I don’t know, Interstellar is one of the silliest movies I’ve ever seen…

AngryData 2mo ago
Yeah I really don't get the praise for it. I doubt ill ever have the desire to watch it again.

warumdarum 2mo ago

Some of us go to the cinema for escapism. Notsome bdsm guilt cult thing. But then maybe its me and fetish fims are mainstream now.

otekengineering 2mo ago

Ender's Game did a pretty good job of answering that question