7 ms·

> I pretty sure OpenAI and Anthropic are doing the same or worse. No they're not. It would end both companies if they were ever found to be doing that. Their

by nikcub 2mo ago

> I pretty sure OpenAI and Anthropic are doing the same or worse. No they're not. It would end both companies if they were ever found to be doing that. Their terms are clear - if you use the coding plans they can[0] train in return. Enterprise and API, absolutely not. The argument here is that with the Chinese labs you have zero legal recourse. [0] opt-in, thanks

mahkeiro 2mo ago
Are we talking about the company sending back private information through its client to « fight » model distillation?
- theshrike79 2mo ago
  Yes. Enterprise contracts are checked and agreed by lawyers. The contract states no training. If the provider fucks up, there are actual monetary damages defined for breach of contract.
  - fluoridation 2mo ago
    It's an unenforceable clause. The affected party has no means to prove that a breach has happened.
    - fzysingularity 2mo ago
      I think we all ought to look at the ZDR fine-print here. I get that in principle that there's no retention, but these are powerful models that can comprehend, paraphrase and summarize your logs for the sake of "product" improvement. Who knows what's collected here.
    - oceanplexian 2mo ago
      > It's an unenforceable clause. The affected party has no means to prove that a breach has happened. Big tech spends hundreds of millions in high powered lawyers, audit logs, and contractual agreements with the sole purpose of proving your point wrong.
      - fluoridation 2mo ago
        Cool. And have they?
victor106 2mo ago
I would think they are not but Alex Karp CEO of Palantir seems to imply that they are: https://youtu.be/0A3sGymV6kY?si=ti7uSZtYqJ3vKpGM https://youtu.be/0A3sGymV6kY?si=ti7uSZtYqJ3vKpGM I found it a little shocking TBH
- muglug 2mo ago
  Alex Karp says a lot of things
theplumber 2mo ago
>> No they're not. It would end both companies if they were ever found to be doing that. Their terms are clear - The argument here is that with the Chinese labs you have zero legal recourse. Their terms are not worth shit considering they are reselling you stolen copyrighted data. Even in they terms they started clearly say they retain your data for "safety reasons" for however long they want. Perhaps you didn't watch the space with Anthropic going back and forth with ToS updates(we retain your data for 30 days...stike that and add 30 days or more or no or ..whatever) like my own alpha website.
- demosthanos 2mo ago
  There is an enormous difference between: * Exploiting ambiguity around fair use at a large scale before the law catches up and then jointly lobbying with your competition to make sure your interpretation of the law becomes reality. * Explicitly signing a contract with enterprises to respect their IP and then proceeding to break that contract with your own customers. The former is firmly in the gray area of legality and doesn't directly hurt your own customers. The latter is both an unambiguous contract violation and a flagrant attack on your own customers' most valuable asset.
  - nclin_ 2mo ago
    retention for 'safety' -> AI race as national security -> training on your data for 'national security' aka safety It's simple mental calisthenics. If you are handing an organization whose entire business model is built on stealing data with spurious reasoning, what do you actually expect they will do? Don't be a fool.
    - demosthanos 2mo ago
      I'd like to see you try using mental calisthenics against a well-funded legal department. Let me know what the judge says.
    - avianlyric 2mo ago
      This argument would hold more weight if Anthropic and OpenAI main customers weren’t massive trillion dollar companies with legal teams capable of burying just about anyone, anywhere, for even the mildest contract violation. Something that OpenAI is getting some close up experience with at the moment.
TurdF3rguson 2mo ago
> if you use the coding plans they train in return. No, you have to opt-in to that. There's a privacy toggle on account settings.
- tripplyons 2mo ago
  For OpenAI, you have to use the Enterprise plan at API pricing in order for them not to train on your data. Source: https://chatgpt.com/codex/pricing/?type=team https://chatgpt.com/codex/pricing/?type=team
  - TurdF3rguson 2mo ago
    Yes, my comment only applies to Claude - I have no knowledge of OpenAI policy.
  - edot 2mo ago
    Not true. You can turn off training in settings on an individual plan.
hedora 2mo ago
Anthropic constantly uses dark patterns to steal training data from customers (like the “how is claude doing” spam, data retention loosening when the safeguards false positive, etc).
- TurdF3rguson 2mo ago
  How is that a dark pattern? What is the light pattern for getting feedback from users?
  - buzer 2mo ago
    There are multiple ways to use feedback. Personally I would often be fine with actual human reading my feedback, taking in account the points I made and evaluating how it should affect their feature development and future roadmap. Now what I would expect AI companies to do is to take things which were submitted as feedback and pretty much adding to training: "Do more of this: <copy of the whole response which was flagged as good in feedback>" "Do less of this: <copy of the whole response which was flagged as bad in feedback>" It's paraphrased, but the point is that they will most likely use it more-or-less as-is and thus whatever is in there will be part of the model's training set rather than someone picking up the parts from response that are important and only including them (which happens with traditional feedback).
    - dannyw 2mo ago
      If you have a naive loop like this you will quickly poison your dataset with e.g. thumbs downs because someone is unhappy with the latest frontend update, or teach models to not correctly refuse. I’m sure the pipeline is more sophisticated and in the middle.
      - buzer 2mo ago
        Sure, but the point is more that once you submit feedback then the usual "opt out of using my data for training" no longer apply and at least that reply (and possibly whole conversation) can be included in training set in one way or another.
dwa3592 2mo ago
lmao, wasn't xAI caught doing this recently? moreover at least moonshot is being honest about it.
doctorpangloss 2mo ago
they train on your requests by paraphrasing them (which means rewriting them but keeping all the saliency) and removing their association with you i don't know why this is so controversial, their terms are written to perfectly fit this training regime. one of you downvoters i'm sure has an enterprise contract with them, just ask. if you are using bedrock, until very recently, they didn't see your requests and could not paraphrase. but too many people were using bedrock for too much stuff they wanted to see. so that's why the terms for bedrock changed for fable 5. this was the core of the palantir / defense dept drama with anthropic.
richardfey 2mo ago
They could use an agent to summarise the source material, and then train models on those summaries, and claim that some sort of clean-room training has happened?
- rapfaria 2mo ago
  You've been to too many meetings with PMs and directors saying "An agent could very easily do this"
  - richardfey 2mo ago
    I understand you're trying to be funny, but my point is that with novel technology there are novel ways to claim innocence in courts because of the legislative void.
mannanj 2mo ago
I think the risk of not doing is more existential than doing so and getting caught. Wouldn’t you agree? Edit: And the point of the poster is they have already demonstrated a track record of lying and misconduct, so how can you trust their word now? What have they done to show you they have taken responsibility for past actions and changed?
_jackdk_ 2mo ago
How much do we trust those guarantees? Apple currently alleges that OpenAI employees have been stealing Apple's trade secrets: https://9to5mac.com/2026/07/10/apple-sues-openai-trade-secret-theft/ https://9to5mac.com/2026/07/10/apple-sues-openai-trade-secre... > [Mr. Tan] has directed job candidates still working for Apple to bring “Actual parts” from Apple to their interviews for “show and tell” sessions in which he and his team at OpenAI can elicit still more Apple confidential information. > As part of its investigation, Apple found a “pattern by employees who depart for OpenAI of taking steps to evade the security processes intended to protect Apple’s confidential information.” > Apple also claims former engineer Liu exploited a security bug to download confidential engineering files after leaving the company. Rather than report the exploit, Liu allegedly joked about it in messages (“LOL,” “so funny”). Liu also failed to return an Apple-issued laptop after his departure. This seems pretty close to "they trust me, dumb fucks" behaviour.
bastardoperator 2mo ago
Maybe Apple lawyers can figure this out in discovery.
b3ing 2mo ago
If you are a regular user they could care less,if you are enterprise they might be more careful. They have credit card info, and all your chats so I’m sure they can figure things out
ricardobeat 2mo ago
How would you explain how they built https://github.com/anthropics/claude-for-legal https://github.com/anthropics/claude-for-legal then? > ... for the legal workflows we see most see.. where?
- anemonetree 2mo ago
  [dead]
- sailingparrot 2mo ago
  claude.com / chatgpt.com. By default your chats over there are opt-in for "help improve our models". Not the API. Terms for the app: https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/10023580-is-my-data-used-for-model-training https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/10023580-is-my-data-u... The API: https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/7996868-is-my-data-used-for-model-training https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/7996868-is-my-data-us...
blazespin 2mo ago
Are there terms clear? I dunno. There are ways to train on API usage without training on API usage.
girvo 2mo ago
If that was completely the whole story, then the extra Zero Retention etc tier enterprise things wouldn’t exist I also don’t trust them lol
c0rruptbytes 2mo ago
my experience right now with fable via bedrock is they collect data, 5.6 has the option for ZDR at least
ceroxylon 2mo ago
Anthropic (and probably OpenAI) can technically flag anything for 'safety' and view it, I'm not trying to imply that they are doing it arbitrarily, but they do have a way to do it within the ToS as far as I understand (happy to be proven wrong).

by nikcub 2mo ago

mahkeiro 2mo ago

Are we talking about the company sending back private information through its client to « fight » model distillation?

theshrike79 2mo ago
Yes. Enterprise contracts are checked and agreed by lawyers. The contract states no training. If the provider fucks up, there are actual monetary damages defined for breach of contract.
- fluoridation 2mo ago
  It's an unenforceable clause. The affected party has no means to prove that a breach has happened.
  - fzysingularity 2mo ago
    I think we all ought to look at the ZDR fine-print here. I get that in principle that there's no retention, but these are powerful models that can comprehend, paraphrase and summarize your logs for the sake of "product" improvement. Who knows what's collected here.
  - oceanplexian 2mo ago
    > It's an unenforceable clause. The affected party has no means to prove that a breach has happened. Big tech spends hundreds of millions in high powered lawyers, audit logs, and contractual agreements with the sole purpose of proving your point wrong.
    - fluoridation 2mo ago
      Cool. And have they?

victor106 2mo ago

I would think they are not but Alex Karp CEO of Palantir seems to imply that they are: https://youtu.be/0A3sGymV6kY?si=ti7uSZtYqJ3vKpGM https://youtu.be/0A3sGymV6kY?si=ti7uSZtYqJ3vKpGM I found it a little shocking TBH

muglug 2mo ago
Alex Karp says a lot of things

theplumber 2mo ago

>> No they're not. It would end both companies if they were ever found to be doing that. Their terms are clear - The argument here is that with the Chinese labs you have zero legal recourse. Their terms are not worth shit considering they are reselling you stolen copyrighted data. Even in they terms they started clearly say they retain your data for "safety reasons" for however long they want. Perhaps you didn't watch the space with Anthropic going back and forth with ToS updates(we retain your data for 30 days...stike that and add 30 days or more or no or ..whatever) like my own alpha website.

demosthanos 2mo ago
There is an enormous difference between: * Exploiting ambiguity around fair use at a large scale before the law catches up and then jointly lobbying with your competition to make sure your interpretation of the law becomes reality. * Explicitly signing a contract with enterprises to respect their IP and then proceeding to break that contract with your own customers. The former is firmly in the gray area of legality and doesn't directly hurt your own customers. The latter is both an unambiguous contract violation and a flagrant attack on your own customers' most valuable asset.
- nclin_ 2mo ago
  retention for 'safety' -> AI race as national security -> training on your data for 'national security' aka safety It's simple mental calisthenics. If you are handing an organization whose entire business model is built on stealing data with spurious reasoning, what do you actually expect they will do? Don't be a fool.
  - demosthanos 2mo ago
    I'd like to see you try using mental calisthenics against a well-funded legal department. Let me know what the judge says.
  - avianlyric 2mo ago
    This argument would hold more weight if Anthropic and OpenAI main customers weren’t massive trillion dollar companies with legal teams capable of burying just about anyone, anywhere, for even the mildest contract violation. Something that OpenAI is getting some close up experience with at the moment.

TurdF3rguson 2mo ago

> if you use the coding plans they train in return. No, you have to opt-in to that. There's a privacy toggle on account settings.

tripplyons 2mo ago
For OpenAI, you have to use the Enterprise plan at API pricing in order for them not to train on your data. Source: https://chatgpt.com/codex/pricing/?type=team https://chatgpt.com/codex/pricing/?type=team
- TurdF3rguson 2mo ago
  Yes, my comment only applies to Claude - I have no knowledge of OpenAI policy.
- edot 2mo ago
  Not true. You can turn off training in settings on an individual plan.

hedora 2mo ago

Anthropic constantly uses dark patterns to steal training data from customers (like the “how is claude doing” spam, data retention loosening when the safeguards false positive, etc).

TurdF3rguson 2mo ago
How is that a dark pattern? What is the light pattern for getting feedback from users?
- buzer 2mo ago
  There are multiple ways to use feedback. Personally I would often be fine with actual human reading my feedback, taking in account the points I made and evaluating how it should affect their feature development and future roadmap. Now what I would expect AI companies to do is to take things which were submitted as feedback and pretty much adding to training: "Do more of this: <copy of the whole response which was flagged as good in feedback>" "Do less of this: <copy of the whole response which was flagged as bad in feedback>" It's paraphrased, but the point is that they will most likely use it more-or-less as-is and thus whatever is in there will be part of the model's training set rather than someone picking up the parts from response that are important and only including them (which happens with traditional feedback).
  - dannyw 2mo ago
    If you have a naive loop like this you will quickly poison your dataset with e.g. thumbs downs because someone is unhappy with the latest frontend update, or teach models to not correctly refuse. I’m sure the pipeline is more sophisticated and in the middle.
    - buzer 2mo ago
      Sure, but the point is more that once you submit feedback then the usual "opt out of using my data for training" no longer apply and at least that reply (and possibly whole conversation) can be included in training set in one way or another.

dwa3592 2mo ago

lmao, wasn't xAI caught doing this recently? moreover at least moonshot is being honest about it.

doctorpangloss 2mo ago

they train on your requests by paraphrasing them (which means rewriting them but keeping all the saliency) and removing their association with you i don't know why this is so controversial, their terms are written to perfectly fit this training regime. one of you downvoters i'm sure has an enterprise contract with them, just ask. if you are using bedrock, until very recently, they didn't see your requests and could not paraphrase. but too many people were using bedrock for too much stuff they wanted to see. so that's why the terms for bedrock changed for fable 5. this was the core of the palantir / defense dept drama with anthropic.

richardfey 2mo ago

They could use an agent to summarise the source material, and then train models on those summaries, and claim that some sort of clean-room training has happened?

rapfaria 2mo ago
You've been to too many meetings with PMs and directors saying "An agent could very easily do this"
- richardfey 2mo ago
  I understand you're trying to be funny, but my point is that with novel technology there are novel ways to claim innocence in courts because of the legislative void.

mannanj 2mo ago

I think the risk of not doing is more existential than doing so and getting caught. Wouldn’t you agree? Edit: And the point of the poster is they have already demonstrated a track record of lying and misconduct, so how can you trust their word now? What have they done to show you they have taken responsibility for past actions and changed?

_jackdk_ 2mo ago

How much do we trust those guarantees? Apple currently alleges that OpenAI employees have been stealing Apple's trade secrets: https://9to5mac.com/2026/07/10/apple-sues-openai-trade-secret-theft/ https://9to5mac.com/2026/07/10/apple-sues-openai-trade-secre... > [Mr. Tan] has directed job candidates still working for Apple to bring “Actual parts” from Apple to their interviews for “show and tell” sessions in which he and his team at OpenAI can elicit still more Apple confidential information. > As part of its investigation, Apple found a “pattern by employees who depart for OpenAI of taking steps to evade the security processes intended to protect Apple’s confidential information.” > Apple also claims former engineer Liu exploited a security bug to download confidential engineering files after leaving the company. Rather than report the exploit, Liu allegedly joked about it in messages (“LOL,” “so funny”). Liu also failed to return an Apple-issued laptop after his departure. This seems pretty close to "they trust me, dumb fucks" behaviour.

bastardoperator 2mo ago

Maybe Apple lawyers can figure this out in discovery.

b3ing 2mo ago

If you are a regular user they could care less,if you are enterprise they might be more careful. They have credit card info, and all your chats so I’m sure they can figure things out

ricardobeat 2mo ago

How would you explain how they built https://github.com/anthropics/claude-for-legal https://github.com/anthropics/claude-for-legal then? > ... for the legal workflows we see most see.. where?

anemonetree 2mo ago
[dead]
sailingparrot 2mo ago
claude.com / chatgpt.com. By default your chats over there are opt-in for "help improve our models". Not the API. Terms for the app: https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/10023580-is-my-data-used-for-model-training https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/10023580-is-my-data-u... The API: https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/7996868-is-my-data-used-for-model-training https://privacy.claude.com/en/articles/7996868-is-my-data-us...

blazespin 2mo ago

Are there terms clear? I dunno. There are ways to train on API usage without training on API usage.

girvo 2mo ago

If that was completely the whole story, then the extra Zero Retention etc tier enterprise things wouldn’t exist I also don’t trust them lol

c0rruptbytes 2mo ago

my experience right now with fable via bedrock is they collect data, 5.6 has the option for ZDR at least

ceroxylon 2mo ago

Anthropic (and probably OpenAI) can technically flag anything for 'safety' and view it, I'm not trying to imply that they are doing it arbitrarily, but they do have a way to do it within the ToS as far as I understand (happy to be proven wrong).