7 ms·

Agreed, but I think this will force the average user to upgrade* their phones after losing access to sensitive apps (bank, gov) before getting compromised. Goo

Agreed, but I think this will force the average user to upgrade* their phones after losing access to sensitive apps (bank, gov) before getting compromised. Good news for reusing old phones and taking control. *as in replace

karteum 2mo ago
"this will force the average user to upgrade their phones" A lot of phones don't receive any upgrades after 1 or 2 years... I wish that Google would have forced vendors to implement a proper hardware abstraction (uefi or similar) so that a single kernel could run on any smartphone, just like it's the case for PCs...
- charcircuit 2mo ago
  Google has required vendors to do that since Android 12. For a given version that same exact kernel is used on all phones with that version. https://source.android.com/docs/core/architecture/kernel/generic-kernel-image https://source.android.com/docs/core/architecture/kernel/gen...
  - ChocolateGod 2mo ago
    Unfortunately it still requires OEMs to ship that kernel.
kuschku 2mo ago
We should be fighting against SafetyNet and similar attestation systems. The proper solution is one we had with desktop computing for decades. If you keep the key material on your eID or bank card, you don't need a locked down operating system. Which then allows devices to live for much longer. We're slowly losing the war on General Purpose Computing. https://media.ccc.de/v/28c3-4848-en-the_coming_war_on_general_computation https://media.ccc.de/v/28c3-4848-en-the_coming_war_on_genera...
- ChocolateGod 2mo ago
  > We should be fighting against SafetyNet and similar attestation systems. The proper solution is one we had with desktop computing for decades. If you keep the key material on your eID or bank card So you want a bank card/ID card to be required each time you use Google Pay? What's the point of Google Pay then.
  - kuschku 2mo ago
    Once upon a time(tm), Google had a great solution for that: You could get a credit card in nano SIM format, and insert into in your dual-SIM phone. That then allows you to do secure NFC credit card payments even on a rooted phone with custom ROM.
    - skinfaxi 2mo ago
      Do you have more details on the sim credit card?
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      I think some banks still do this with NFC instead?
    - ChocolateGod 2mo ago
      That doesn't work when someone has multiple or virtual cards. That also means if someone steals my phone they get my credit card too. Not a great solution.
      - treyd 2mo ago
        You can load multiple card identities onto the same SIM and select the one you want to use.
      - kuschku 2mo ago
        > That also means if someone steals my phone they get my credit card too. Which hasn't been an issue since Chip & PIN became required, 22 years ago (at least over here).
AnthonyMouse 2mo ago
> Agreed, but I think this will force the average user to upgrade* their phones after losing access to sensitive apps (bank, gov) before getting compromised. The problem being that there are many millions of people who can't afford to replace a phone they only recently bought just because the vendor never updates it, which means those banks and things can't in practice demand that people do that. Indeed, it creates the opposite problem, because installing a custom ROM on that device would give it a patched kernel but cause it to fail attestation, so what the attestation is actually doing is requiring those people to continue to use the vulnerable OS.

karteum 2mo ago

"this will force the average user to upgrade their phones" A lot of phones don't receive any upgrades after 1 or 2 years... I wish that Google would have forced vendors to implement a proper hardware abstraction (uefi or similar) so that a single kernel could run on any smartphone, just like it's the case for PCs...

charcircuit 2mo ago
Google has required vendors to do that since Android 12. For a given version that same exact kernel is used on all phones with that version. https://source.android.com/docs/core/architecture/kernel/generic-kernel-image https://source.android.com/docs/core/architecture/kernel/gen...
- ChocolateGod 2mo ago
  Unfortunately it still requires OEMs to ship that kernel.

kuschku 2mo ago

We should be fighting against SafetyNet and similar attestation systems. The proper solution is one we had with desktop computing for decades. If you keep the key material on your eID or bank card, you don't need a locked down operating system. Which then allows devices to live for much longer. We're slowly losing the war on General Purpose Computing. https://media.ccc.de/v/28c3-4848-en-the_coming_war_on_general_computation https://media.ccc.de/v/28c3-4848-en-the_coming_war_on_genera...

ChocolateGod 2mo ago
> We should be fighting against SafetyNet and similar attestation systems. The proper solution is one we had with desktop computing for decades. If you keep the key material on your eID or bank card So you want a bank card/ID card to be required each time you use Google Pay? What's the point of Google Pay then.
- kuschku 2mo ago
  Once upon a time(tm), Google had a great solution for that: You could get a credit card in nano SIM format, and insert into in your dual-SIM phone. That then allows you to do secure NFC credit card payments even on a rooted phone with custom ROM.
  - skinfaxi 2mo ago
    Do you have more details on the sim credit card?
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    I think some banks still do this with NFC instead?
  - ChocolateGod 2mo ago
    That doesn't work when someone has multiple or virtual cards. That also means if someone steals my phone they get my credit card too. Not a great solution.
    - treyd 2mo ago
      You can load multiple card identities onto the same SIM and select the one you want to use.
    - kuschku 2mo ago
      > That also means if someone steals my phone they get my credit card too. Which hasn't been an issue since Chip & PIN became required, 22 years ago (at least over here).

AnthonyMouse 2mo ago

> Agreed, but I think this will force the average user to upgrade* their phones after losing access to sensitive apps (bank, gov) before getting compromised. The problem being that there are many millions of people who can't afford to replace a phone they only recently bought just because the vendor never updates it, which means those banks and things can't in practice demand that people do that. Indeed, it creates the opposite problem, because installing a custom ROM on that device would give it a patched kernel but cause it to fail attestation, so what the attestation is actually doing is requiring those people to continue to use the vulnerable OS.