9 ms·

Why Vanilla JavaScript

167 points by guseyn 2mo ago

jv22222 2mo ago
4 years doing this before AI. Then I felt my tool was not quite right for the AI environment. Now I'm building something else with AI.
benoau 2mo ago
Some good history of the JS ecosystem here but the underlying message is all the same, frameworks scale and provide structure but you don't need them. Very easy to agree up to this point. Author then elaborates in the absence of using a common-knowledge framework you can create some tighter solution that achieves just the part you need. This is "fun" programming, and the author is suitably impressed with themselves for solving problems they created just by convincing themself not to use a framework. Sometimes that's fine, although I don't think there's much appetite for this anymore. Article doesn't really elaborate on what "scaling" and "providing structure" means, I think it downplays the benefits because when you use <framework> you are really establishing ground rules for how all future developers are going to work on that software. You don't know exactly what they'll write, but you know they'll always gravitate towards the top 2 or 3 solutions for that framework at any given time. When you bust out a bespoke solution that carves out that one thing you needed and does it oh so elegantly and perfectly, you're creating art but most of the canvas is left blank for future developers and they're effectively going to scribble on it with crayons.
- bluegatty 2mo ago
  You can say that without being demeaning. These are random people acting in good faith. Also - sometimes it is actually useful to make a mini-thing instead of bringing in enterprise messes.
  - chabska 2mo ago
    These people are perfectly fine with depicting React developers as corporate zombies that can't think for themselves. Good faith is bidirectional.
    - bluegatty 2mo ago
      We can try to be a big magnanimous and rise above a tiny bit of 'English on the ball', let the small stuff slide.
- swatcoder 2mo ago
  We practice engineering. As engineers, we need to understand the realities of each project we take on. Those realities are not limited to the marketing bullet points we might apply to the imagined product someday, which is what early career folk might naively call "the requirements". Among the most critical realities to consider exist outside the product definition entirely, and have to do with the environment in which it will exist during and after development. These are things like plausible scaling curves and limits, code lifetime, team size, deployment options and preferences, etc. Others are things like available runway, team fluency and talent, available tools and licenses, etc. One of the big eyeroll moments of the last 15 years or so was when folks started blindly cargo culting global-scale 10,000-engineer enterprise practices on projects that would obviously only ever be touched by 1-2 technicians and deployed on a far far far more modest scale. Instead of actively considering any of those environmental requirements above, "engineers" would try to treat every project as though it would someday service 10,000,000 DAU under the hand of dozens or hundreds of churning technicians. Akin to the joke about some Americans who see themselves as "temporarily embarassed millionares", making foolish choices at their own obvious expense, many engineers during this era would seem to see themselves as "temporarily embarassed Facebooks". In countless cases, this was simply very dumb and very wasteful and at best amounted to inadvertent (or perhaps intentional) resume-padding for the people involved, while their projects bloated and sagged and lurched under unwarranted complexity. Sometimes (in fact: often), just doing the thing well with simple, clear, stable tools -- and nothing more -- is the right choice.
  - shimman 2mo ago
    It is truly insane that this still continues to happen today, I mean the entire cloud industry is built on overcharging clients for compute they will never ever realistically use. Not too mention how damaging it all is to environment in exacerbating the climate catastrophe.
  - groundzeros2015 2mo ago
    As computer hardware has become more capable we should have been able to build even more web applications on a single machine. But there are few people even pushing on that boundary. Some engineers learned it works fine and are quietly maintaining a stable system well under capacity. Or building the most insane distributed systems ever conceived.
- FpUser 2mo ago
  >"frameworks scale and provide structure" Web Components and vanilla JS scale just as well. Been doing this for ages.
  - wett 2mo ago
    Asking in good faith: how is your experience working with vanilla JS on a team? While I’m not the biggest fan of Nextjs for my own solo projects, I really enjoy using it at work. Leaning into the opinionation it provides/encourages keeps my team from bickering too much about how to structure things. It’s really nice to say “this is the idiomatic way of doing it according to the docs” and for everyone to nod their head. Whereas pages in our legacy PHP codebase look completely different depending on who implemented them.
    - pjmlp 2mo ago
      You impose static analysers on the CI/CD pipeline, or git pre-commit hooks for code style? Folks learn about how to use modules and libraries?
    - FpUser 2mo ago
      Team or not makes no difference. Front ends works like this - main app split into few smaller ones callable from a menu. Each sub-app is dynamically imported module (no need for building, code mutilation, direct dependency etc). Sub-apps in turn can consist from the other sub apps. Each can be worked on completely independently by different team member with virtually no interaction needed. Apps can share some approved libraries (like for graphics etc) and HTML components responsible for particular bits and pieces. Components and libs go into common pool. Once component is in a pool modifying behavior is punishable by death. Only internals. If change is breaking then simply new version is developed and deployed. The whole thing is super scalable organization wise (nearly everything is decoupled) and resource wise as well since everything is loaded strictly on on need basis.
Gualdrapo 2mo ago
I wish there was some sort of "use strict-typed" or something that let you use in-browser interpreted typescript
- pianopatrick 2mo ago
  Well, you could use jsDoc to hold your types instead of writing them in typescript. The typescript compiler can still check types in jsDoc comments but you do not need a build step and the javascript you ship to the browser would be the same you write in your editor.
  - hoppp 2mo ago
    I built some modules with jsDoc because I didn't want to have a build step but wanted type support. Works fine.
  - teaearlgraycold 2mo ago
    It works really really well. No one should be writing untyped JS anymore.
  - satvikpendem 2mo ago
    JSDoc is not as powerful as TypeScript types but that might be fine for your use case. However, if you are already using tsc I don't see why you'd care about a build step, and if you care that the JS in the browser is the same as the editor, tsc can do that too without minifying and changing the JS output, merely stripping the types instead.
- zamadatix 2mo ago
  "use stricter";
hoppp 2mo ago
Did anyone else notice the pattern that ever since the LLMs got popular the "I hate javascript" kind of posts or comments have decreased? It could be attributed also to typescript dominance of course, since people don't use plain js anymore. As for the blog post, I agree, I also implemented my own js framework when I code in vanilla js and it works fine. The problem is not inventing frameworks, the problem is that everyone invents frameworks, so people all know different things and they are hard to hire.
- foobarbecue 2mo ago
  I think the complaints attenuated in the last in the last 10-15 years because javascript itself became a much better language. Things really started to change with ES5. The introduction of let / const, modules, async, .?, template strings, etc. transformed it from an ugly kludge to a really capable language. Of course, if you use old syntax you still deal with weird scoping and casting, but you don't have to any more. Also, I think the framework churn has slowed considerably in the last 5 years.
  - dsego 2mo ago
    Everybody sort of settled on React and Node, or at least on the reactive/declarative component paradigm. React was introduced over 10 years ago now, it's a dinosaur.
mircerlancerous 2mo ago
Any framework that requires me to learn custom syntax, is a problem in my opinion. I agree with the author that the browser is already the framework, and a powerful one at that. I don't really struggle with views and dom thanks to my own libraries, so maybe those without appreciate thw guilded gardens of these frameworks. Problem is that if these frameworks fall out of favour or stray from their original quality, you're stuck with worthless knowledge and maybe code as well
doginasuit 2mo ago
This hit so close to home. For the last eight months I've been building a web app without any major framework like react or angular. Angular taught me a lot of important lessons about best practices for structuring UI. But eventually you run into boilerplate that doesn't jive with what you want to do. The author frames this as artificial complexity, and that's the best framing I've seen. The browser has a particular presentation philosophy and the more you try to cover it up, the more awkward your code becomes at the edges. The killer application of LLMs is their ability to inform and adapt to a particular API, and analyze the code that you write. They are garbage at producing functionality for which they don't have a thousand examples, but provide documentation and intent and they will help you fill in the gaps. This is the real 10x opportunity, and the best part is that you can still write all the code yourself. I'm certain this doesn't just apply to javascript and the web. I predict that the need for frameworks will slowly go away.
- mrugge 2mo ago
  LLMs are non-deterministic and can benefit from guardrails which frameworks happily provide.
  - doginasuit 2mo ago
    If you are relying on a LLM to write the code, sure. But no amount of guardrails can maintain the quality of a primarily LLM generated codebase.
- rerdavies 2mo ago
  Claude 4.6+ seem to work fine with my React/typescript apps.
prokopton 2mo ago
It’s been a minute since someone ranted about frontend frameworks. Take a shot.
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- lezojeda 2mo ago
  And he ended up... creating frameworks himself. I fail to see the whole point of the article tbh. It's a rant against JS frameworks/libraries and the frontend in general all to end up admitting he did the same?
  - prokopton 2mo ago
    I checked out before getting to that. He even wrote his own HTML variant called EHTML. https://e-html.org https://e-html.org Well played. You got me to visit your version of the thing you complained about. :clapping-emoji:
    - megous 2mo ago
      It's not a html variant. It's just a bunch of web components. Takes like 30s of looking at actual source code to figure that out.
      - dsego 2mo ago
        So like Lit components or Stencil?
WhyNotHugo 2mo ago
I appreciate the sentiment, but can't agree fully. I used vanilla JS for many years before AngularJS even existed (and I also tried AngulasJS when it was the new thing). Vue is just a huge convenience over raw JavaScript for large, complex view. Sure, I don't get to do direct DOM manipulation, but when I write C code I also don't get to pick which variable goes in which CPU register. I accept giving up control that ASM would give me, for all the improvements that C brings on top of it, even if C just compiles to ASM and is an abstraction on top of it.
- stana 2mo ago
  Writing programs in C has simplified developer experience over Assembly. Issue with JS frameworks is that many find them complex, i.e. complexity has not been abstracted away (which should be goal of abstractions). Maybe DOM manipulation has, but many new complex ideas had to be introduced to achieve it.
  - dsego 2mo ago
    But isn't that the right thing to do? Recognize the problems and introduce concepts to tackle them. C introduced pointers as a concept, one more thing to learn and reason about but frees you from using addresses directly. Relational models was discovered as a formal way of understanding and reasoning about data structures. Frontend components introduce a composable architecture with lifecycle hooks, reactivity etc. Those concepts were already there (e.g. with ad-hoc html templates, event listeners, clean up code) but now they are actually formalized and made explicit and developers actively think about them when doing frontend. So the abstraction is there, but I feel for some reason non-UI people assume UI is easy to code, but they never thought about the actual concepts involved. Even without frameworks, you need to consider composability, modularity, events, life cycle, state management, async behavior, etc. I'd rather have those built in and considered as part of the programming model, than to avoid it.
- JBits 2mo ago
  Is it mainly the reactivity part of Vue that you benefit from, or are there other aspects which are important?
jagged-chisel 2mo ago
What’s the Idiomatic Vanilla JavaScript way to bind data and UI in a web browser?
- austin-cheney 2mo ago
  What are you really asking? You use data to populate content or inform your logic.
  - jagged-chisel 2mo ago
    When the user changes a value in the UI, the data must reflect the change. When a value changes in the data, the UI must reflect the change. That’s “binding.” What’s the idiomatic way to solve this automatically?
    - austin-cheney 2mo ago
      I use WebSockets. If the user changes a value you have to send that changed value forward. If the value changes outside the UI you have to send it into the UI.
      - jagged-chisel 2mo ago
        What does the binding look like in source code? Do we hand-code every UI field with the code that updates the local model and then transmits it to the backend? Or is there a way to make the boilerplate as small as possible, relying on one bit of code to handle synchronization between UI, local model, and server? “Using WebSockets” doesn’t bind an interface element to its source of truth; it’s just the chosen transport to move the data. I’ll be sticking with a RESTy interface. But that doesn’t matter because the question is how is the binding implemented so that fewer mistakes are made synchronizing the data? Hand coding every field’s binding logic is going to be error-prone.
        austin-cheney 2mo ago
danielvaughn 2mo ago
I've been considering going back to vanilla javascript, given the current power of LLMs. It could become unreadable spaghetti, but it does that anyway with frameworks.
teaearlgraycold 2mo ago
Sad to see no mention of @ts-check. I love being able to write native browser JS modules with nearly all of the functionality from TypeScript.
uzyn 2mo ago
Author's EHTML "framework" reminds me of HTMX. https://e-html.org/html/vs-others.html https://e-html.org/html/vs-others.html misses comparison with HTMX. Curious on the similarities and differences.
hexasquid 2mo ago
> NO, YOU CANNOT JUST USE GLOBAL STATE. USE THIRD-PARTY LIBRARY WITH FANCY FUNCTIONAL DESIGN. window.i = 0; // initialize all my for loops in one go!
umvi 2mo ago
Even better: vanilla TypeScript + golang middleware (esbuild) on the backend that converts to JS on the fly. Like vanilla JS but with all the benefits of a type system and no bundler or npm required.
- bergie 2mo ago
  You still need a build tool, and that tool is likely broken if you need to return to the project in a year or two. TypeScript benefits can be had without a build step by leveraging JsDoc.
shams93 2mo ago
The power of web components is having the ability to develop complex front end without the need for a build tool in 2026. In 2008 when I got started with heavy javascript jquery was a must have tool to fill in for all the horrible browser api incompatibilites at the time. But because we are just developing custom elements with vanilla it works fine with vue and rust and all the others.
- austin-cheney 2mo ago
  I write in vanilla TypeScript. I do not have any build step in my application. Since Node now supports native type stripping I don't have a compile step either. I just write my code and then point node at the main file, and this even includes front-end code for the browser.
  - thisoneisreal 2mo ago
    Can you explain more about how the front end aspect works? I'm not clear how the front end code could by TypeScript without a build step, unless I'm misreading.
    - austin-cheney 2mo ago
      Node strips types on all imported code regardless of where that code executes.
      - root_axis 2mo ago
        Node doesn't run in the browser.
        umvi 2mo ago
        Presumably Node is the server (back end), and when the browser requests a TS file, Node is stripping the types before serving it to the browser.
sheept 2mo ago
Vanilla JavaScript makes sense for personal projects, but if you're working on a team, I wouldn't trust other team members to not create their own frameworks that may not be as well documented. Especially nowadays with LLMs, the team would benefit more from the LLM innately knowing a widely used library/framework than having to spend context each session teaching the agent your custom setup through context files and skills.
- austin-cheney 2mo ago
  Sure, when I wrote JavaScript for a living I wouldn't trust my employer to get hiring or training right either.
brutaljokerz 2mo ago
*vanilla typescript
motoxpro 2mo ago
My take is that the take that vanilla js is better because developers love coding more than they love building the thing. See all the frameworks/packages built as an example. This person re-invented form handlers, frameworks, ui helpers just to be able to do some basic things. All power to you if you like it, its just funny.
adamtaylor_13 2mo ago
Did I misunderstand or was that whole rant just to establish that, actually, we do need super tiny frameworks for the front end, but they're super tiny so it's not a big deal and they're not bad like React?
- Lerc 2mo ago
  We don't need things taking control from us. Or dictating the terms for manipulating an already defined interface. If that means you have to make a small thing that is designed to do just the task at hand but to do it well, I am all for it. I think the only frameworks that I have encountered that I felt were worth using were server side things like express where they had a very specific task to do and could isolate areas of behaviour.
  - dsego 2mo ago
    It's not terms, it's structure. You all seem to be fighting calculus and saying knowing addition and multiplication is enough. I'm reminded of friends refusing to learn chords on guitar and trying to invent their own musicality so they are not constrained by music theory.
    - Lerc 2mo ago
      You don't get situations where you can say that group theory would solve this bit really well and this bit could have been done with addition and shifts, but we have already committed to using calculus so unfortunately we can't use it,
tisdadd 2mo ago
I have to admit that I really love web components ever since Polymer 1, and agree with the article sentiment (this post was starting to get to be a mirror of many of the authors thoughts, so cut it down) It is very interesting watching the Web cycles, and found it curious how many people here were sad that typescript was not mentioned. There are some fun (though I suppose dangerous) things you can do without it, and I've found it has had very many instances not helped me where expected like a fully matured typed language has. And I've worked with a lot of people who just went I added types and don't know how to use generics. I guess if you have it poorly implemented, then it's best to leave as JavaScript. And, web components you can keep things very simple... Which helps keep many errors down.
d--b 2mo ago
I think OP is mainly right about this, but the tone of the article is going to annoy people very much. I believe many of us have done both the self-serving homemade framework and the industry standard framework. And many of us know the pros and cons of both approaches. I don’t like react very much and dislike the other ones even more. Yet, it’d be stupid to say you can’t make them work. They come with a large community and pckages and solve a ton of problems that a homebrewed framework doesn’t even conceive of. And you can just start writing the stuff you need right away. On the other hand, a homemade framework doesn’t require the extra overhead of knowing the framework, and maintaining it overtime. You don’t need to track down why the code gets run a gazillion times more than it needs to, you can debug through your events, etc. They’re just different ways of doing things. But mainly: react is a pain in the butt but if time is your constrain, it should get you to where you want to be faster than if you’re not using it.
LostInTheWoods 2mo ago
This article misses the point of frameworks like Angular. Its never been about whether a framework is qualitatively better that vanilla or some other framework. The issue is when your codebase and your team reach a certain size you need the baseline, predictability and the guard rails that a framework provides. Otherwise you risk your project spiraling into chaos.
- megous 2mo ago
  All projects spiral into chaos unless there's a person or more who try to reduce the growth of entropy, all the time, framework or not. And these days, LLM agent will just re-use existing patterns if prompted correctly, regardless of who in the team is using it or whether or not there's a public well known framework in place or not. So consistency should not really be an issue anymore even in a team.
socketcluster 2mo ago
I love vanilla JavaScript. All my personal projects are plain JavaScript. No Typescript. But in a company setting, it's almost impossible to find plain JavaScript roles. Plain JS is also a lot better with AI. I don't recall Claude ever making any mistakes in terms of getting the type wrong with plain JS since I started using it. It's just not the kind of mistake that AI makes. I feel somewhat vindicated by this. I've been saying for years that coding isn't the hard part, type correctness isn't the hard part. I also made a point that complex interfaces are a greater danger and that Typescript tends to encourage people to design complex interfaces... And look, this certainly seems to be reflected in the training data because my AI token usage at work (Typescript) is far greater than on my side projects for the same task complexity. This is kind of proving my point that plain JS code is better architeted overall than Typescript code... It makes sense to me, any complex plain JS code MUST be well architecture because JS is unforgiving. The spaghetti doesn't go very far in JS.
- bigcityslider 2mo ago
  Same, but the article isn't about JS vs TS, it's a criticism of frameworks.
nilirl 2mo ago
> The idea of reactivity came from or was popularized by Angular.js No, spreadsheets popularized reactivity. And the general point is incredibly weak. Don't use frameworks and make your own? Sure, have your fun. But then try teaching your framework to your company of 1000 and see how quickly you realize your view of the "problems" are only a slice of the pie.
- rablackburn 2mo ago
  How many companies have 1000 frontend developers? Do they need 1000 frontend developers? Aside from the Giants maybe some consultancies or hire-firms have that many? But they use whatever the client uses. If you're not in the business of selling frontend development services then a big part of your competitive advantage is _being able_ to make technology choices that are more-optimal than the labor market's lowest-common-denominator slurry. Between JS/ECMAscript being abandonware for a decade and CSS' historical immaturity (cross-browser layout, custom properties, more pseudoclasses, etc) the Web was more of a wild west "whatever you we can cobble together" place. So of course we built an entire toolchain ecosystem for all the cool new tools we would reinvent from scratch. but Things Are Pretty Good these days. We even have the world's only fully system portable assembly language: WASM! And the browser's Web APIs are becoming something like the missing Standard Library (shoutout to Deno). The author's point seems to be that we are past a tipping point where we need all that additional complexity. You don't _need_ a separate system of reactivity these days, you can write a (closer to pre-hooks React, even!) React-style component library with Web Components now. Personally I would need for Type Annotations to be a fully supported part of the spec before I made the point to "use the platform" professionally. Until some market force causes the core web technologies to truly fork my skills are useful for life. It's like a pale shadow of how UNIX users must feel :')
  - nilirl 2mo ago
    My point was your needs and problems are not everyone's needs and problems. I don't want to think of memory management in most projects, I want to focus on business logic, so I use Node.js instead of Rust, even if the latter gives me more control. Similarly, I don't want to think of DOM management in most projects, I want to focus on data dependencies, so I use React instead of Web Components, even if the latter gives me more control.
onion2k 2mo ago
So many more problems solved… Those problems aren't 'solved'. The author has an implementation of a solution. It's one that they think is good, which is ace and I'm happy for him, but if he ever introduces a second developer to his project those 'solved' problems will become a point of friction. They'll go from 'solved' to 'solved, but in the wrong way' or 'solved, but not for this edge case', or 'solved, but why is the code so verbose?' The massive advantage of a framework is that the people who choose it have agreed to share a solution to the common problems. This cannot be overstated - as soon as your team grows to more than one developer you move from 'solve the problem' to 'solve the problem in a way that people agree on', and that is far more complicated than just solving a problem. Sometimes you get lucky and work with people who think the same way as you, or with people who are willing to compromise on their ideal solution and accept yours, and then things still work, but if they're 'passionate' about being right then it's horrible, slow, and results in bad code. A framework is an upfront agreement about how to build something. That has no practical advantage for a dev working alone. It's incredibly useful for two or more devs working together. Which framework doesn't really matter, except the ones with more devs behind them make it a lot easier to find people who've already accepted that way of working. That's helpful.
- winrid 2mo ago
  you just agree on a set of conventions for components and state management, it's not that hard. This is basically how Rails works... yes it's still a framework, duh. it's just less abstraction than react etc.
  - onion2k 2mo ago
    Sure, and if you like working with the conventions and abstraction Rails offers that's great. Other people make different choices. That doesn't mean they're wrong.
    - winrid 2mo ago
      To write good React you have to follow conventions, too. You can't get away from conventions. People keep touting react etc but I swear every mobile ordering app I use lags like hell, just from recent example, and these can easily be built and maintained without a huge framework to "manage state" or "connect state to the view".
LAC-Tech 2mo ago
Based and Vanilla JS pilled. I know posts like this get a lot of whinging, but you are 100% right. The browser is in itself a platform; frameworks are not like some kind of hyper abstracted Web Scrinting Language for people too important to deal with "raw" CSS/DOM. They're a an awkward, alternate abstraction, slow as molasses, and they leak like a sieve.
65 2mo ago
I like this article because it feels so pre-AI. This is what people were arguing about on HackerNews back in the day! How so very nostalgic it makes me feel. But in response to the article: no, vanilla JS is a nightmare to keep your code organized, and battle tested frameworks do quite a good job at that. It's otherwise mostly a waste of time, or an intellectual exercise at most, to build an app with vanilla JS
didip 2mo ago
If we are going to rant like this… i’d say even most of JS is unnecessary. Just use server side template rendering with HTMX. LLM can see server side request flow better anyway.
- ChadNauseam 2mo ago
  As a user I don't really appreciate sites that do this as they tend to have worse latency for UI interactions and less pleasant page transitions. And of course, they are unusable offline
  - bfjvibybd6cuvu6 2mo ago
    My sites with htmx have less latency for ui interactions and page transitions work like every page on the internet. As for offline, yeah, my Internet web page doesn't work offline. Shocker.
    - ChadNauseam 2mo ago
      > As for offline, yeah, my Internet web page doesn't work offline. That's really too bad honestly. What about your users who want to use your site when they're offline? Sympathy with those users is why I made sure that my site works well when offline.
      - interf4ce 2mo ago
        Whether this is actually beneficial (let alone possible) depends heavily on the type of site. Web apps that are valuable to use offline also tend to be the kind that really do warrant client-side logic and rendering (a spreadsheet web app is a classic example). If the site's focus is providing information (e.g. Wikipedia), then working offline really just means loading all the backing data into the browser, which quickly becomes impossible. I'm sure there are cases where offline availability is a huge plus (your site might be a good example), I just don't think it's universally applicable.
nnevatie 2mo ago
Aka. I didn't like the N frameworks out there, so I invented 2 more. Now we have N+2...
root_axis 2mo ago
Labeling UI frameworks as artificial complexity is simply a sign of inexperience manifested as NIH syndrome. The vanilla approach is fine for a personal or toy project, but it's an unmitigated disaster for a project with even a moderately complex UI. Eventually, the vanilla project becomes its own bespoke UI framework with a bunch of poor design choices because all the complexity that was dismissed as "artificial" eventually gets patched in using a rube-goldberg-machine approach to architecture.
- umvi 2mo ago
  Not everyone is building complex UIs like google sheets. Most people are building static pages with a sprinkle of interactivity, or maybe form pages for doing CRUD.
  - root_axis 2mo ago
    As I said, any app with at least a "moderately complex UI". If your app is just a sequence of web forms and stays that way forever, then you're not the target audience of a UI framework anyway.
  - ganzsz 2mo ago
    It starts as simple crud, but then product introduces a business rule where some fields need to be hidden when another option is selected somewhere. O, but not when this checked, etc. Having a reactive framework when this happens is very much needed to keep all these effects working without a lot of vanilla JS. This can be solved later, but is a lot harder when you have an entire application that needs to bee kept working, and almost trivial if you started with some reactivity built in.
    - evolve-maz 2mo ago
      A lot of rules like "some fields are hidden / shown based on other fields" come from restricting users to only expressing valid object states. E.g. I have a form where a user can pick a "notifier". They get a first dropdown select which is email or teams-message. Then based on that selection to get another which fills the details relative to that. In that case, the backend will likely have a class instancr representing it, with the first field being a discriminator on the class and the remaining fields being the details. And regardless of what the frontend does, the backend will revalidate always because you can never trust data sent from a frontend. All that to say, maybe the form could be server side rendered, with an adaptor to convert a class definition into an html form fragment, and either embedding the js "rules" into the html itself, or making it a web component for containered usage. Doing it this way is a big deviation from the current status quo, but I've found it to work very well and cut out a whole range of bugs. Plus it makes me think about what is truly client side state (no chance of staleness) vs server state cached in client to avoid repeat server calls (could be stale, leads to bugs).
hahahaa 2mo ago
React is an electric screwdriver. Real hassle: battery needs charging, need to insert correct bit, may need extendy bit for some jobs. But got an IKEA cupboard and not a simple shelf? Gimme that electric screwdriver! In vanilla JS even small SPA projects can end up tangled or you are hand compiling what React would do for you for free. Nit: in React events are events useEffect reacts to abstract state changes.
thastings 2mo ago
https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
EugeneOZ 2mo ago
The article is titled "Why Vanilla JS," but the takeaway seems to be "here are the custom abstractions I wrote."
pikeangler 2mo ago
I use Svelte 5 (without SvelteKit) for my SPA's, after doing my first SPA in vanilla JS. Then I discovered Svelte. Svelte is very close to the platform and still solves a lot of problems: for reactivity, modularity and CSS cascading (and in version 5 it is not too "magical"). A lot of the critique of frameworks in this article does not apply to Svelte.
- ciconia 2mo ago
  How so? Svelte provides a bunch of (very nice, no doubt) abstractions for building web UIs, and there's a build step. In that regard, Svelte is no different from other JS frameworks.
  - tancop 2mo ago
    [dead]
  - rimliu 2mo ago
    The hint how Svelte is different is in the word "different".
- andrew-dc 2mo ago
  My experience with Svelte has been similar. Svelte struck the right DX balance for me between helpful framework tools and features, but not far removed from vanilla JS, HTML, and CSS. And sure, there is a build step. I have never felt like this was a problem with Svelte, but then I don't have experience working on a colossal Svelte app. Does it become one?
- dsego 2mo ago
  Svelte needs a build step, and with the introduction of runes for reactive state it's not that different from the rest of the crop (solid, react, vue).
JodieBenitez 2mo ago
> Multi-page applications are slow to load and navigate. A bit tired to see this... No it's not. We do this all the time. It's as simple as using proper HTTP headers for your css/js/pictures/whatever. You can even have smooth page transitions now.
- simondotau 2mo ago
  A browser can load a singular page within tens of milliseconds of receiving the packets. It literally cannot get faster. Single page applications only feel faster because there's no risk of white flashes. Multi-page applications are slow if you load in 20 libraries from 10 different CDNs, a page tracking system, a click tracking system, a "performance metrics" system, a chat bot overlay, an advertising platform, all the crap loaded by the ad intermediate, all the crap loaded by the ad itself, an ad "traffic quality" montor, a Stripe.com thing (even though this isn't a payment page), something from Facebook, something else from fbcdn...
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
- dominicrose 2mo ago
  HTTP was designed for multi-page applications/websites but I think it makes sense that Facebook migrated from basic PHP/MySQL to something more complex including React and making less full-page navigation events, for performance reasons (server costs and mobile loading time). There's also UX because a PHP website can feel a bit static, with less animations. But yes the web has evolved since then and the HTTP protocol has newer versions and most apps don't serve as many users as Facebook.
- interf4ce 2mo ago
  100% The author is reinforcing the false dichotomy between using front end frameworks and hand-rolled JS, as if rendering data from JSON APIs is the only way to display information from the server. Almost as an aside, he says > Server Side Rendering is also no better, because while they can do certain things in more straightforward way, they break browser behaviour [...] but he provides no examples or supporting evidence, so it's difficult to know what browser behaviour he's referencing. "SSR" is just how the web has worked since the beginning and it works very well. Maybe he's specifically talking about SSR as provided by Next? I've never used it, so I'm not sure what browser behaviour it might be breaking.
pedro_movai 2mo ago
Regarding Vanilla JS, You don't need React: creating a minimal UI library: https://pedroth.github.io/?p=post/NoNeedReact https://pedroth.github.io/?p=post/NoNeedReact
- rerdavies 2mo ago
  No thank you.
kinard 2mo ago
There "demo here" url is broken, it's resolving as: https://cdn.guseyn.com(/mp4/desktop.mp4) https://cdn.guseyn.com(/mp4/desktop.mp4) Instead of https://cdn.guseyn.com/mp4/desktop.mp4 https://cdn.guseyn.com/mp4/desktop.mp4
sourcecodeplz 2mo ago
i think nowadays is more important than ever to understand why/how/when to use one technology vs another. ask Codex to make you a website and maybe it will use React. maybe you didn't need really need build steps, but whatever it works?
curtisblaine 2mo ago
Nobody says that React is great (also) because it's industry standard. If you pick up a React codebase you instantly understand how a component renders, where its state is, what its effects are, which components render that component etc. If it's React with a decent linter configuration, it's even easier. With a custom framework, on the other hand, you're at the mercy of who invented it. You have to find where state is, you have to trace where the state is "teleported" via broadcast, you have to understand where side effects are invoked etc. If the custom framework is as good as React, I'd still choose React just because it's a de factor standard.
CM30 2mo ago
Honestly, I've always thought that whether frameworks or vanilla JavaScript are better is very context dependent. If you're working on a complex UI where keeping everything consistent and understandable without a framework would be hell (like Google Docs or Gmail), then a framework like React is preferable. If you're working with a simple website that needs minimum interactivity, then vanilla JavaScript is probably the better tool for the job. The issue is that much of the time, people seem to choose tools based on convenience/past experience, not whether it's actually the right solution to their current issue.
olavgg 2mo ago
I fully agree with the author, and I have stayed on vanilla JS for decades now. I like the simplicity, ownership, zero dependecies. I have my own bundler in Spring Boot using Google Closure Compiler, which works autonomously with the javascript assets. No nodejs needed. Also with the developer disruption of agentic coding AI, the arguments for using vanilla JS is even stronger. Code reviews of code/solutions is much easier. Scoping of code paths for each server-side render templates is easier. The AI does all the boilerplate coding, while keeping it readable and debugable. Implementing design patterns is just common computer science stuff, and the coding agent is pretty good at it. I also what to mention, as a business owner, and boss of a startup. All developers here work with vanilla javascript. They were first surprised, but today they prefer it by a huge margin because of the simplicity and zero dependency and non existing build steps. The web browser is the framework, you need another abstraction over the web browser.
nashashmi 2mo ago
VanillaJS ecmascript needs far more rapid development. Right now too often there are polyfills being suggested to avoid developing features into the browser. For example, react and vue and angular features should be standardized by now. As for frameworks, we are not progressing towards AI-driven frameworks.
dreamcompiler 2mo ago
React was invented to make multiple DOM changes quicker and set up DOM event dependencies declaratively. Fine. Some websites benefit from this. Most do not. Since React's invention, it has gotten more bloated, browsers have made living DOM changes a lot faster, and the vast majority of websites still only change one or two DOM objects in response to events. Those could easily be handled much faster with plain old AJAX. The latency overhead React adds to a website is quite noticeable and unnecessary. Airbnb.com for example would be a great deal more pleasant to use if they would ditch React. The fact that React had to reinvent server-side rendering is all you need to know to see that React has jumped the shark.
- dsego 2mo ago
  It's not just react, there is a lot of bloat included in modern interfaces, things like telemetry, metrics, error reporting, heatmaps, etc. React was inspired by PHP rendering exactly because it is a much simpler model then the usual two way data binding models.
vsgherzi 2mo ago
I can offer a slightly alternate prospective. At my current company we’re a small team that needs the frontend to stay stable with little changes for long periods of time. Our major react site has rotted due to us not keeping up with the Churn of the ecosystem. We don’t have a complex ui. We just need stability. Keeping up and managing a framework has been too much when we don’t have a dedicated frontend team.

167 points by guseyn 2mo ago

4 years doing this before AI. Then I felt my tool was not quite right for the AI environment. Now I'm building something else with AI.

benoau 2mo ago

Some good history of the JS ecosystem here but the underlying message is all the same, frameworks scale and provide structure but you don't need them. Very easy to agree up to this point. Author then elaborates in the absence of using a common-knowledge framework you can create some tighter solution that achieves just the part you need. This is "fun" programming, and the author is suitably impressed with themselves for solving problems they created just by convincing themself not to use a framework. Sometimes that's fine, although I don't think there's much appetite for this anymore. Article doesn't really elaborate on what "scaling" and "providing structure" means, I think it downplays the benefits because when you use <framework> you are really establishing ground rules for how all future developers are going to work on that software. You don't know exactly what they'll write, but you know they'll always gravitate towards the top 2 or 3 solutions for that framework at any given time. When you bust out a bespoke solution that carves out that one thing you needed and does it oh so elegantly and perfectly, you're creating art but most of the canvas is left blank for future developers and they're effectively going to scribble on it with crayons.

bluegatty 2mo ago
You can say that without being demeaning. These are random people acting in good faith. Also - sometimes it is actually useful to make a mini-thing instead of bringing in enterprise messes.
- chabska 2mo ago
  These people are perfectly fine with depicting React developers as corporate zombies that can't think for themselves. Good faith is bidirectional.
  - bluegatty 2mo ago
    We can try to be a big magnanimous and rise above a tiny bit of 'English on the ball', let the small stuff slide.
swatcoder 2mo ago
We practice engineering. As engineers, we need to understand the realities of each project we take on. Those realities are not limited to the marketing bullet points we might apply to the imagined product someday, which is what early career folk might naively call "the requirements". Among the most critical realities to consider exist outside the product definition entirely, and have to do with the environment in which it will exist during and after development. These are things like plausible scaling curves and limits, code lifetime, team size, deployment options and preferences, etc. Others are things like available runway, team fluency and talent, available tools and licenses, etc. One of the big eyeroll moments of the last 15 years or so was when folks started blindly cargo culting global-scale 10,000-engineer enterprise practices on projects that would obviously only ever be touched by 1-2 technicians and deployed on a far far far more modest scale. Instead of actively considering any of those environmental requirements above, "engineers" would try to treat every project as though it would someday service 10,000,000 DAU under the hand of dozens or hundreds of churning technicians. Akin to the joke about some Americans who see themselves as "temporarily embarassed millionares", making foolish choices at their own obvious expense, many engineers during this era would seem to see themselves as "temporarily embarassed Facebooks". In countless cases, this was simply very dumb and very wasteful and at best amounted to inadvertent (or perhaps intentional) resume-padding for the people involved, while their projects bloated and sagged and lurched under unwarranted complexity. Sometimes (in fact: often), just doing the thing well with simple, clear, stable tools -- and nothing more -- is the right choice.
- shimman 2mo ago
  It is truly insane that this still continues to happen today, I mean the entire cloud industry is built on overcharging clients for compute they will never ever realistically use. Not too mention how damaging it all is to environment in exacerbating the climate catastrophe.
- groundzeros2015 2mo ago
  As computer hardware has become more capable we should have been able to build even more web applications on a single machine. But there are few people even pushing on that boundary. Some engineers learned it works fine and are quietly maintaining a stable system well under capacity. Or building the most insane distributed systems ever conceived.
FpUser 2mo ago
>"frameworks scale and provide structure" Web Components and vanilla JS scale just as well. Been doing this for ages.
- wett 2mo ago
  Asking in good faith: how is your experience working with vanilla JS on a team? While I’m not the biggest fan of Nextjs for my own solo projects, I really enjoy using it at work. Leaning into the opinionation it provides/encourages keeps my team from bickering too much about how to structure things. It’s really nice to say “this is the idiomatic way of doing it according to the docs” and for everyone to nod their head. Whereas pages in our legacy PHP codebase look completely different depending on who implemented them.
  - pjmlp 2mo ago
    You impose static analysers on the CI/CD pipeline, or git pre-commit hooks for code style? Folks learn about how to use modules and libraries?
  - FpUser 2mo ago
    Team or not makes no difference. Front ends works like this - main app split into few smaller ones callable from a menu. Each sub-app is dynamically imported module (no need for building, code mutilation, direct dependency etc). Sub-apps in turn can consist from the other sub apps. Each can be worked on completely independently by different team member with virtually no interaction needed. Apps can share some approved libraries (like for graphics etc) and HTML components responsible for particular bits and pieces. Components and libs go into common pool. Once component is in a pool modifying behavior is punishable by death. Only internals. If change is breaking then simply new version is developed and deployed. The whole thing is super scalable organization wise (nearly everything is decoupled) and resource wise as well since everything is loaded strictly on on need basis.

Gualdrapo 2mo ago

I wish there was some sort of "use strict-typed" or something that let you use in-browser interpreted typescript

pianopatrick 2mo ago
Well, you could use jsDoc to hold your types instead of writing them in typescript. The typescript compiler can still check types in jsDoc comments but you do not need a build step and the javascript you ship to the browser would be the same you write in your editor.
- hoppp 2mo ago
  I built some modules with jsDoc because I didn't want to have a build step but wanted type support. Works fine.
- teaearlgraycold 2mo ago
  It works really really well. No one should be writing untyped JS anymore.
- satvikpendem 2mo ago
  JSDoc is not as powerful as TypeScript types but that might be fine for your use case. However, if you are already using tsc I don't see why you'd care about a build step, and if you care that the JS in the browser is the same as the editor, tsc can do that too without minifying and changing the JS output, merely stripping the types instead.
zamadatix 2mo ago
"use stricter";

hoppp 2mo ago

Did anyone else notice the pattern that ever since the LLMs got popular the "I hate javascript" kind of posts or comments have decreased? It could be attributed also to typescript dominance of course, since people don't use plain js anymore. As for the blog post, I agree, I also implemented my own js framework when I code in vanilla js and it works fine. The problem is not inventing frameworks, the problem is that everyone invents frameworks, so people all know different things and they are hard to hire.

foobarbecue 2mo ago
I think the complaints attenuated in the last in the last 10-15 years because javascript itself became a much better language. Things really started to change with ES5. The introduction of let / const, modules, async, .?, template strings, etc. transformed it from an ugly kludge to a really capable language. Of course, if you use old syntax you still deal with weird scoping and casting, but you don't have to any more. Also, I think the framework churn has slowed considerably in the last 5 years.
- dsego 2mo ago
  Everybody sort of settled on React and Node, or at least on the reactive/declarative component paradigm. React was introduced over 10 years ago now, it's a dinosaur.

mircerlancerous 2mo ago

Any framework that requires me to learn custom syntax, is a problem in my opinion. I agree with the author that the browser is already the framework, and a powerful one at that. I don't really struggle with views and dom thanks to my own libraries, so maybe those without appreciate thw guilded gardens of these frameworks. Problem is that if these frameworks fall out of favour or stray from their original quality, you're stuck with worthless knowledge and maybe code as well

doginasuit 2mo ago

This hit so close to home. For the last eight months I've been building a web app without any major framework like react or angular. Angular taught me a lot of important lessons about best practices for structuring UI. But eventually you run into boilerplate that doesn't jive with what you want to do. The author frames this as artificial complexity, and that's the best framing I've seen. The browser has a particular presentation philosophy and the more you try to cover it up, the more awkward your code becomes at the edges. The killer application of LLMs is their ability to inform and adapt to a particular API, and analyze the code that you write. They are garbage at producing functionality for which they don't have a thousand examples, but provide documentation and intent and they will help you fill in the gaps. This is the real 10x opportunity, and the best part is that you can still write all the code yourself. I'm certain this doesn't just apply to javascript and the web. I predict that the need for frameworks will slowly go away.

mrugge 2mo ago
LLMs are non-deterministic and can benefit from guardrails which frameworks happily provide.
- doginasuit 2mo ago
  If you are relying on a LLM to write the code, sure. But no amount of guardrails can maintain the quality of a primarily LLM generated codebase.
rerdavies 2mo ago
Claude 4.6+ seem to work fine with my React/typescript apps.

prokopton 2mo ago

It’s been a minute since someone ranted about frontend frameworks. Take a shot.

deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
lezojeda 2mo ago
And he ended up... creating frameworks himself. I fail to see the whole point of the article tbh. It's a rant against JS frameworks/libraries and the frontend in general all to end up admitting he did the same?
- prokopton 2mo ago
  I checked out before getting to that. He even wrote his own HTML variant called EHTML. https://e-html.org https://e-html.org Well played. You got me to visit your version of the thing you complained about. :clapping-emoji:
  - megous 2mo ago
    It's not a html variant. It's just a bunch of web components. Takes like 30s of looking at actual source code to figure that out.
    - dsego 2mo ago
      So like Lit components or Stencil?

WhyNotHugo 2mo ago

I appreciate the sentiment, but can't agree fully. I used vanilla JS for many years before AngularJS even existed (and I also tried AngulasJS when it was the new thing). Vue is just a huge convenience over raw JavaScript for large, complex view. Sure, I don't get to do direct DOM manipulation, but when I write C code I also don't get to pick which variable goes in which CPU register. I accept giving up control that ASM would give me, for all the improvements that C brings on top of it, even if C just compiles to ASM and is an abstraction on top of it.

stana 2mo ago
Writing programs in C has simplified developer experience over Assembly. Issue with JS frameworks is that many find them complex, i.e. complexity has not been abstracted away (which should be goal of abstractions). Maybe DOM manipulation has, but many new complex ideas had to be introduced to achieve it.
- dsego 2mo ago
  But isn't that the right thing to do? Recognize the problems and introduce concepts to tackle them. C introduced pointers as a concept, one more thing to learn and reason about but frees you from using addresses directly. Relational models was discovered as a formal way of understanding and reasoning about data structures. Frontend components introduce a composable architecture with lifecycle hooks, reactivity etc. Those concepts were already there (e.g. with ad-hoc html templates, event listeners, clean up code) but now they are actually formalized and made explicit and developers actively think about them when doing frontend. So the abstraction is there, but I feel for some reason non-UI people assume UI is easy to code, but they never thought about the actual concepts involved. Even without frameworks, you need to consider composability, modularity, events, life cycle, state management, async behavior, etc. I'd rather have those built in and considered as part of the programming model, than to avoid it.
JBits 2mo ago
Is it mainly the reactivity part of Vue that you benefit from, or are there other aspects which are important?

jagged-chisel 2mo ago

What’s the Idiomatic Vanilla JavaScript way to bind data and UI in a web browser?

austin-cheney 2mo ago
What are you really asking? You use data to populate content or inform your logic.
- jagged-chisel 2mo ago
  When the user changes a value in the UI, the data must reflect the change. When a value changes in the data, the UI must reflect the change. That’s “binding.” What’s the idiomatic way to solve this automatically?
  - austin-cheney 2mo ago
    I use WebSockets. If the user changes a value you have to send that changed value forward. If the value changes outside the UI you have to send it into the UI.
    - jagged-chisel 2mo ago
      What does the binding look like in source code? Do we hand-code every UI field with the code that updates the local model and then transmits it to the backend? Or is there a way to make the boilerplate as small as possible, relying on one bit of code to handle synchronization between UI, local model, and server? “Using WebSockets” doesn’t bind an interface element to its source of truth; it’s just the chosen transport to move the data. I’ll be sticking with a RESTy interface. But that doesn’t matter because the question is how is the binding implemented so that fewer mistakes are made synchronizing the data? Hand coding every field’s binding logic is going to be error-prone.
      - austin-cheney 2mo ago

danielvaughn 2mo ago

I've been considering going back to vanilla javascript, given the current power of LLMs. It could become unreadable spaghetti, but it does that anyway with frameworks.

teaearlgraycold 2mo ago

Sad to see no mention of @ts-check. I love being able to write native browser JS modules with nearly all of the functionality from TypeScript.

uzyn 2mo ago

Author's EHTML "framework" reminds me of HTMX. https://e-html.org/html/vs-others.html https://e-html.org/html/vs-others.html misses comparison with HTMX. Curious on the similarities and differences.

hexasquid 2mo ago

> NO, YOU CANNOT JUST USE GLOBAL STATE. USE THIRD-PARTY LIBRARY WITH FANCY FUNCTIONAL DESIGN. window.i = 0; // initialize all my for loops in one go!

umvi 2mo ago

Even better: vanilla TypeScript + golang middleware (esbuild) on the backend that converts to JS on the fly. Like vanilla JS but with all the benefits of a type system and no bundler or npm required.

bergie 2mo ago
You still need a build tool, and that tool is likely broken if you need to return to the project in a year or two. TypeScript benefits can be had without a build step by leveraging JsDoc.

shams93 2mo ago

The power of web components is having the ability to develop complex front end without the need for a build tool in 2026. In 2008 when I got started with heavy javascript jquery was a must have tool to fill in for all the horrible browser api incompatibilites at the time. But because we are just developing custom elements with vanilla it works fine with vue and rust and all the others.

austin-cheney 2mo ago
I write in vanilla TypeScript. I do not have any build step in my application. Since Node now supports native type stripping I don't have a compile step either. I just write my code and then point node at the main file, and this even includes front-end code for the browser.
- thisoneisreal 2mo ago
  Can you explain more about how the front end aspect works? I'm not clear how the front end code could by TypeScript without a build step, unless I'm misreading.
  - austin-cheney 2mo ago
    Node strips types on all imported code regardless of where that code executes.
    - root_axis 2mo ago
      Node doesn't run in the browser.
      - umvi 2mo ago
        Presumably Node is the server (back end), and when the browser requests a TS file, Node is stripping the types before serving it to the browser.

sheept 2mo ago

Vanilla JavaScript makes sense for personal projects, but if you're working on a team, I wouldn't trust other team members to not create their own frameworks that may not be as well documented. Especially nowadays with LLMs, the team would benefit more from the LLM innately knowing a widely used library/framework than having to spend context each session teaching the agent your custom setup through context files and skills.

austin-cheney 2mo ago
Sure, when I wrote JavaScript for a living I wouldn't trust my employer to get hiring or training right either.

brutaljokerz 2mo ago

*vanilla typescript

motoxpro 2mo ago

My take is that the take that vanilla js is better because developers love coding more than they love building the thing. See all the frameworks/packages built as an example. This person re-invented form handlers, frameworks, ui helpers just to be able to do some basic things. All power to you if you like it, its just funny.

adamtaylor_13 2mo ago

Did I misunderstand or was that whole rant just to establish that, actually, we do need super tiny frameworks for the front end, but they're super tiny so it's not a big deal and they're not bad like React?

Lerc 2mo ago
We don't need things taking control from us. Or dictating the terms for manipulating an already defined interface. If that means you have to make a small thing that is designed to do just the task at hand but to do it well, I am all for it. I think the only frameworks that I have encountered that I felt were worth using were server side things like express where they had a very specific task to do and could isolate areas of behaviour.
- dsego 2mo ago
  It's not terms, it's structure. You all seem to be fighting calculus and saying knowing addition and multiplication is enough. I'm reminded of friends refusing to learn chords on guitar and trying to invent their own musicality so they are not constrained by music theory.
  - Lerc 2mo ago
    You don't get situations where you can say that group theory would solve this bit really well and this bit could have been done with addition and shifts, but we have already committed to using calculus so unfortunately we can't use it,

tisdadd 2mo ago

I have to admit that I really love web components ever since Polymer 1, and agree with the article sentiment (this post was starting to get to be a mirror of many of the authors thoughts, so cut it down) It is very interesting watching the Web cycles, and found it curious how many people here were sad that typescript was not mentioned. There are some fun (though I suppose dangerous) things you can do without it, and I've found it has had very many instances not helped me where expected like a fully matured typed language has. And I've worked with a lot of people who just went I added types and don't know how to use generics. I guess if you have it poorly implemented, then it's best to leave as JavaScript. And, web components you can keep things very simple... Which helps keep many errors down.

d--b 2mo ago

I think OP is mainly right about this, but the tone of the article is going to annoy people very much. I believe many of us have done both the self-serving homemade framework and the industry standard framework. And many of us know the pros and cons of both approaches. I don’t like react very much and dislike the other ones even more. Yet, it’d be stupid to say you can’t make them work. They come with a large community and pckages and solve a ton of problems that a homebrewed framework doesn’t even conceive of. And you can just start writing the stuff you need right away. On the other hand, a homemade framework doesn’t require the extra overhead of knowing the framework, and maintaining it overtime. You don’t need to track down why the code gets run a gazillion times more than it needs to, you can debug through your events, etc. They’re just different ways of doing things. But mainly: react is a pain in the butt but if time is your constrain, it should get you to where you want to be faster than if you’re not using it.

LostInTheWoods 2mo ago

This article misses the point of frameworks like Angular. Its never been about whether a framework is qualitatively better that vanilla or some other framework. The issue is when your codebase and your team reach a certain size you need the baseline, predictability and the guard rails that a framework provides. Otherwise you risk your project spiraling into chaos.

megous 2mo ago
All projects spiral into chaos unless there's a person or more who try to reduce the growth of entropy, all the time, framework or not. And these days, LLM agent will just re-use existing patterns if prompted correctly, regardless of who in the team is using it or whether or not there's a public well known framework in place or not. So consistency should not really be an issue anymore even in a team.

socketcluster 2mo ago

I love vanilla JavaScript. All my personal projects are plain JavaScript. No Typescript. But in a company setting, it's almost impossible to find plain JavaScript roles. Plain JS is also a lot better with AI. I don't recall Claude ever making any mistakes in terms of getting the type wrong with plain JS since I started using it. It's just not the kind of mistake that AI makes. I feel somewhat vindicated by this. I've been saying for years that coding isn't the hard part, type correctness isn't the hard part. I also made a point that complex interfaces are a greater danger and that Typescript tends to encourage people to design complex interfaces... And look, this certainly seems to be reflected in the training data because my AI token usage at work (Typescript) is far greater than on my side projects for the same task complexity. This is kind of proving my point that plain JS code is better architeted overall than Typescript code... It makes sense to me, any complex plain JS code MUST be well architecture because JS is unforgiving. The spaghetti doesn't go very far in JS.

bigcityslider 2mo ago
Same, but the article isn't about JS vs TS, it's a criticism of frameworks.

nilirl 2mo ago

> The idea of reactivity came from or was popularized by Angular.js No, spreadsheets popularized reactivity. And the general point is incredibly weak. Don't use frameworks and make your own? Sure, have your fun. But then try teaching your framework to your company of 1000 and see how quickly you realize your view of the "problems" are only a slice of the pie.

rablackburn 2mo ago
How many companies have 1000 frontend developers? Do they need 1000 frontend developers? Aside from the Giants maybe some consultancies or hire-firms have that many? But they use whatever the client uses. If you're not in the business of selling frontend development services then a big part of your competitive advantage is _being able_ to make technology choices that are more-optimal than the labor market's lowest-common-denominator slurry. Between JS/ECMAscript being abandonware for a decade and CSS' historical immaturity (cross-browser layout, custom properties, more pseudoclasses, etc) the Web was more of a wild west "whatever you we can cobble together" place. So of course we built an entire toolchain ecosystem for all the cool new tools we would reinvent from scratch. but Things Are Pretty Good these days. We even have the world's only fully system portable assembly language: WASM! And the browser's Web APIs are becoming something like the missing Standard Library (shoutout to Deno). The author's point seems to be that we are past a tipping point where we need all that additional complexity. You don't _need_ a separate system of reactivity these days, you can write a (closer to pre-hooks React, even!) React-style component library with Web Components now. Personally I would need for Type Annotations to be a fully supported part of the spec before I made the point to "use the platform" professionally. Until some market force causes the core web technologies to truly fork my skills are useful for life. It's like a pale shadow of how UNIX users must feel :')
- nilirl 2mo ago
  My point was your needs and problems are not everyone's needs and problems. I don't want to think of memory management in most projects, I want to focus on business logic, so I use Node.js instead of Rust, even if the latter gives me more control. Similarly, I don't want to think of DOM management in most projects, I want to focus on data dependencies, so I use React instead of Web Components, even if the latter gives me more control.

onion2k 2mo ago

So many more problems solved… Those problems aren't 'solved'. The author has an implementation of a solution. It's one that they think is good, which is ace and I'm happy for him, but if he ever introduces a second developer to his project those 'solved' problems will become a point of friction. They'll go from 'solved' to 'solved, but in the wrong way' or 'solved, but not for this edge case', or 'solved, but why is the code so verbose?' The massive advantage of a framework is that the people who choose it have agreed to share a solution to the common problems. This cannot be overstated - as soon as your team grows to more than one developer you move from 'solve the problem' to 'solve the problem in a way that people agree on', and that is far more complicated than just solving a problem. Sometimes you get lucky and work with people who think the same way as you, or with people who are willing to compromise on their ideal solution and accept yours, and then things still work, but if they're 'passionate' about being right then it's horrible, slow, and results in bad code. A framework is an upfront agreement about how to build something. That has no practical advantage for a dev working alone. It's incredibly useful for two or more devs working together. Which framework doesn't really matter, except the ones with more devs behind them make it a lot easier to find people who've already accepted that way of working. That's helpful.

winrid 2mo ago
you just agree on a set of conventions for components and state management, it's not that hard. This is basically how Rails works... yes it's still a framework, duh. it's just less abstraction than react etc.
- onion2k 2mo ago
  Sure, and if you like working with the conventions and abstraction Rails offers that's great. Other people make different choices. That doesn't mean they're wrong.
  - winrid 2mo ago
    To write good React you have to follow conventions, too. You can't get away from conventions. People keep touting react etc but I swear every mobile ordering app I use lags like hell, just from recent example, and these can easily be built and maintained without a huge framework to "manage state" or "connect state to the view".

LAC-Tech 2mo ago

Based and Vanilla JS pilled. I know posts like this get a lot of whinging, but you are 100% right. The browser is in itself a platform; frameworks are not like some kind of hyper abstracted Web Scrinting Language for people too important to deal with "raw" CSS/DOM. They're a an awkward, alternate abstraction, slow as molasses, and they leak like a sieve.

65 2mo ago

I like this article because it feels so pre-AI. This is what people were arguing about on HackerNews back in the day! How so very nostalgic it makes me feel. But in response to the article: no, vanilla JS is a nightmare to keep your code organized, and battle tested frameworks do quite a good job at that. It's otherwise mostly a waste of time, or an intellectual exercise at most, to build an app with vanilla JS

didip 2mo ago

If we are going to rant like this… i’d say even most of JS is unnecessary. Just use server side template rendering with HTMX. LLM can see server side request flow better anyway.

ChadNauseam 2mo ago
As a user I don't really appreciate sites that do this as they tend to have worse latency for UI interactions and less pleasant page transitions. And of course, they are unusable offline
- bfjvibybd6cuvu6 2mo ago
  My sites with htmx have less latency for ui interactions and page transitions work like every page on the internet. As for offline, yeah, my Internet web page doesn't work offline. Shocker.
  - ChadNauseam 2mo ago
    > As for offline, yeah, my Internet web page doesn't work offline. That's really too bad honestly. What about your users who want to use your site when they're offline? Sympathy with those users is why I made sure that my site works well when offline.
    - interf4ce 2mo ago
      Whether this is actually beneficial (let alone possible) depends heavily on the type of site. Web apps that are valuable to use offline also tend to be the kind that really do warrant client-side logic and rendering (a spreadsheet web app is a classic example). If the site's focus is providing information (e.g. Wikipedia), then working offline really just means loading all the backing data into the browser, which quickly becomes impossible. I'm sure there are cases where offline availability is a huge plus (your site might be a good example), I just don't think it's universally applicable.

nnevatie 2mo ago

Aka. I didn't like the N frameworks out there, so I invented 2 more. Now we have N+2...

root_axis 2mo ago

Labeling UI frameworks as artificial complexity is simply a sign of inexperience manifested as NIH syndrome. The vanilla approach is fine for a personal or toy project, but it's an unmitigated disaster for a project with even a moderately complex UI. Eventually, the vanilla project becomes its own bespoke UI framework with a bunch of poor design choices because all the complexity that was dismissed as "artificial" eventually gets patched in using a rube-goldberg-machine approach to architecture.

umvi 2mo ago
Not everyone is building complex UIs like google sheets. Most people are building static pages with a sprinkle of interactivity, or maybe form pages for doing CRUD.
- root_axis 2mo ago
  As I said, any app with at least a "moderately complex UI". If your app is just a sequence of web forms and stays that way forever, then you're not the target audience of a UI framework anyway.
- ganzsz 2mo ago
  It starts as simple crud, but then product introduces a business rule where some fields need to be hidden when another option is selected somewhere. O, but not when this checked, etc. Having a reactive framework when this happens is very much needed to keep all these effects working without a lot of vanilla JS. This can be solved later, but is a lot harder when you have an entire application that needs to bee kept working, and almost trivial if you started with some reactivity built in.
  - evolve-maz 2mo ago
    A lot of rules like "some fields are hidden / shown based on other fields" come from restricting users to only expressing valid object states. E.g. I have a form where a user can pick a "notifier". They get a first dropdown select which is email or teams-message. Then based on that selection to get another which fills the details relative to that. In that case, the backend will likely have a class instancr representing it, with the first field being a discriminator on the class and the remaining fields being the details. And regardless of what the frontend does, the backend will revalidate always because you can never trust data sent from a frontend. All that to say, maybe the form could be server side rendered, with an adaptor to convert a class definition into an html form fragment, and either embedding the js "rules" into the html itself, or making it a web component for containered usage. Doing it this way is a big deviation from the current status quo, but I've found it to work very well and cut out a whole range of bugs. Plus it makes me think about what is truly client side state (no chance of staleness) vs server state cached in client to avoid repeat server calls (could be stale, leads to bugs).

hahahaa 2mo ago

React is an electric screwdriver. Real hassle: battery needs charging, need to insert correct bit, may need extendy bit for some jobs. But got an IKEA cupboard and not a simple shelf? Gimme that electric screwdriver! In vanilla JS even small SPA projects can end up tangled or you are hand compiling what React would do for you for free. Nit: in React events are events useEffect reacts to abstract state changes.

thastings 2mo ago

https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/

EugeneOZ 2mo ago

The article is titled "Why Vanilla JS," but the takeaway seems to be "here are the custom abstractions I wrote."

pikeangler 2mo ago

I use Svelte 5 (without SvelteKit) for my SPA's, after doing my first SPA in vanilla JS. Then I discovered Svelte. Svelte is very close to the platform and still solves a lot of problems: for reactivity, modularity and CSS cascading (and in version 5 it is not too "magical"). A lot of the critique of frameworks in this article does not apply to Svelte.

ciconia 2mo ago
How so? Svelte provides a bunch of (very nice, no doubt) abstractions for building web UIs, and there's a build step. In that regard, Svelte is no different from other JS frameworks.
- tancop 2mo ago
  [dead]
- rimliu 2mo ago
  The hint how Svelte is different is in the word "different".
andrew-dc 2mo ago
My experience with Svelte has been similar. Svelte struck the right DX balance for me between helpful framework tools and features, but not far removed from vanilla JS, HTML, and CSS. And sure, there is a build step. I have never felt like this was a problem with Svelte, but then I don't have experience working on a colossal Svelte app. Does it become one?
dsego 2mo ago
Svelte needs a build step, and with the introduction of runes for reactive state it's not that different from the rest of the crop (solid, react, vue).

JodieBenitez 2mo ago

> Multi-page applications are slow to load and navigate. A bit tired to see this... No it's not. We do this all the time. It's as simple as using proper HTTP headers for your css/js/pictures/whatever. You can even have smooth page transitions now.

simondotau 2mo ago
A browser can load a singular page within tens of milliseconds of receiving the packets. It literally cannot get faster. Single page applications only feel faster because there's no risk of white flashes. Multi-page applications are slow if you load in 20 libraries from 10 different CDNs, a page tracking system, a click tracking system, a "performance metrics" system, a chat bot overlay, an advertising platform, all the crap loaded by the ad intermediate, all the crap loaded by the ad itself, an ad "traffic quality" montor, a Stripe.com thing (even though this isn't a payment page), something from Facebook, something else from fbcdn...
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
dominicrose 2mo ago
HTTP was designed for multi-page applications/websites but I think it makes sense that Facebook migrated from basic PHP/MySQL to something more complex including React and making less full-page navigation events, for performance reasons (server costs and mobile loading time). There's also UX because a PHP website can feel a bit static, with less animations. But yes the web has evolved since then and the HTTP protocol has newer versions and most apps don't serve as many users as Facebook.
interf4ce 2mo ago
100% The author is reinforcing the false dichotomy between using front end frameworks and hand-rolled JS, as if rendering data from JSON APIs is the only way to display information from the server. Almost as an aside, he says > Server Side Rendering is also no better, because while they can do certain things in more straightforward way, they break browser behaviour [...] but he provides no examples or supporting evidence, so it's difficult to know what browser behaviour he's referencing. "SSR" is just how the web has worked since the beginning and it works very well. Maybe he's specifically talking about SSR as provided by Next? I've never used it, so I'm not sure what browser behaviour it might be breaking.

pedro_movai 2mo ago

Regarding Vanilla JS, You don't need React: creating a minimal UI library: https://pedroth.github.io/?p=post/NoNeedReact https://pedroth.github.io/?p=post/NoNeedReact

rerdavies 2mo ago
No thank you.

kinard 2mo ago

There "demo here" url is broken, it's resolving as: https://cdn.guseyn.com(/mp4/desktop.mp4) https://cdn.guseyn.com(/mp4/desktop.mp4) Instead of https://cdn.guseyn.com/mp4/desktop.mp4 https://cdn.guseyn.com/mp4/desktop.mp4

sourcecodeplz 2mo ago

i think nowadays is more important than ever to understand why/how/when to use one technology vs another. ask Codex to make you a website and maybe it will use React. maybe you didn't need really need build steps, but whatever it works?

curtisblaine 2mo ago

Nobody says that React is great (also) because it's industry standard. If you pick up a React codebase you instantly understand how a component renders, where its state is, what its effects are, which components render that component etc. If it's React with a decent linter configuration, it's even easier. With a custom framework, on the other hand, you're at the mercy of who invented it. You have to find where state is, you have to trace where the state is "teleported" via broadcast, you have to understand where side effects are invoked etc. If the custom framework is as good as React, I'd still choose React just because it's a de factor standard.

CM30 2mo ago

Honestly, I've always thought that whether frameworks or vanilla JavaScript are better is very context dependent. If you're working on a complex UI where keeping everything consistent and understandable without a framework would be hell (like Google Docs or Gmail), then a framework like React is preferable. If you're working with a simple website that needs minimum interactivity, then vanilla JavaScript is probably the better tool for the job. The issue is that much of the time, people seem to choose tools based on convenience/past experience, not whether it's actually the right solution to their current issue.

olavgg 2mo ago

I fully agree with the author, and I have stayed on vanilla JS for decades now. I like the simplicity, ownership, zero dependecies. I have my own bundler in Spring Boot using Google Closure Compiler, which works autonomously with the javascript assets. No nodejs needed. Also with the developer disruption of agentic coding AI, the arguments for using vanilla JS is even stronger. Code reviews of code/solutions is much easier. Scoping of code paths for each server-side render templates is easier. The AI does all the boilerplate coding, while keeping it readable and debugable. Implementing design patterns is just common computer science stuff, and the coding agent is pretty good at it. I also what to mention, as a business owner, and boss of a startup. All developers here work with vanilla javascript. They were first surprised, but today they prefer it by a huge margin because of the simplicity and zero dependency and non existing build steps. The web browser is the framework, you need another abstraction over the web browser.

nashashmi 2mo ago

VanillaJS ecmascript needs far more rapid development. Right now too often there are polyfills being suggested to avoid developing features into the browser. For example, react and vue and angular features should be standardized by now. As for frameworks, we are not progressing towards AI-driven frameworks.

dreamcompiler 2mo ago

React was invented to make multiple DOM changes quicker and set up DOM event dependencies declaratively. Fine. Some websites benefit from this. Most do not. Since React's invention, it has gotten more bloated, browsers have made living DOM changes a lot faster, and the vast majority of websites still only change one or two DOM objects in response to events. Those could easily be handled much faster with plain old AJAX. The latency overhead React adds to a website is quite noticeable and unnecessary. Airbnb.com for example would be a great deal more pleasant to use if they would ditch React. The fact that React had to reinvent server-side rendering is all you need to know to see that React has jumped the shark.

dsego 2mo ago
It's not just react, there is a lot of bloat included in modern interfaces, things like telemetry, metrics, error reporting, heatmaps, etc. React was inspired by PHP rendering exactly because it is a much simpler model then the usual two way data binding models.

vsgherzi 2mo ago

I can offer a slightly alternate prospective. At my current company we’re a small team that needs the frontend to stay stable with little changes for long periods of time. Our major react site has rotted due to us not keeping up with the Churn of the ecosystem. We don’t have a complex ui. We just need stability. Keeping up and managing a framework has been too much when we don’t have a dedicated frontend team.