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Totally misleading. Early CPR (+AED if available) absolutely saves lives. Article is from 2011 by a family med doctor. Overly aggressive resuscitation attempts

by j-conn 2mo ago

Totally misleading. Early CPR (+AED if available) absolutely saves lives. Article is from 2011 by a family med doctor. Overly aggressive resuscitation attempts are definitely a problem but context matters

bonsai_spool 2mo ago
> Early CPR (+AED if available) absolutely saves lives. Article is from 2011 by a family med doctor. You have to provide a denominator to make this statement. 30-day survival for out-of-hospital CPR is 10%, and discharge from the hospital (let alone functional status) is even lower. CPR is thus a great example of the OP's thesis that doctors refuse certain things based on their poor efficacy. https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/resources/articles/cpr-facts-and-statistics https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/resources/articles/cpr...
- kryogen1c 2mo ago
  Did you read what you linked? It's not a study of the effects of cpr, it's a list of facts about cardiac arrest that occurs outside a hospital. It explicitly says cpr is life saving: >Survival chances decrease by 10% for every minute that immediate CPR and use of an AED is delayed.
  - bonsai_spool 2mo ago
    > Did you read what you linked? It's not a study of the effects of cpr, it's a list of facts about cardiac arrest that occurs outside a hospital. It explicitly says cpr is life saving: Oh my goodness, did YOU read anything on the page? Here's a literal quote with a link to a study you could have followed if you weren't just here for outrage points: "For the past 20 years, the survival rate for cardiac arrest has hovered around 10 percent for out-of-hospital incidences and 21 percent for in-hospital events, yet research shows that high-quality CPR has a significant impact on survival outcomes, whether inside or outside the hospital." link: https://mycares.net/sitepages/uploads/2026/2025_flipbook/index.html?page=52 https://mycares.net/sitepages/uploads/2026/2025_flipbook/ind...
- krisoft 2mo ago
  > 30-day survival for out-of-hospital CPR is 10% Okay. And what is the 30-day survival for cases where CPR would be otherwise indicated but are not performed? It is a bit like complaining that jumping out of a burning airplane with a parachute is dangerous. Yes, it is. But jumping out of a parachute, or burning inside, is even more dangerous.
  - bonsai_spool 2mo ago
    > Okay. And what is the 30-day survival for cases where CPR would be otherwise indicated but are not performed? Great question, but it's obviously not possible to answer. I suspect the survival rate won't be 0, and maybe won't even be less than 10%. The point of this whole subtree is that there are interventions that people wouldn't want for themselves because the expected outcome is very poor.
classichasclass 2mo ago
"Early" is load-bearing. Even brief delays, just mere minutes, significantly decrease survival or positive outcomes. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCOUTCOMES.123.010116 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCOUTCOMES.123.010... It's important to get people to realize the benefits of early CPR and more people should be trained on how to do it, or else it won't be prompt and the outcomes will be worse. That's what the Red Cross and AHA promulgate to the public, in so many words.
- lsaferite 2mo ago
  I've never heard the term "load-bearing" used outside of the civil engineering world until the more recent versions of Claude suddenly decided everything was "load-bearing". Did you internalize Claude terminology, use Claude to write/translate your post, or lead Claude into temptation by being the OG? Asking out of genuine curiosity and not at all trying to throw shade.
  - switchbak 2mo ago
    "Load bearing beliefs" is a thing in the podcast/YouTube world at a minimum. Perhaps you're not as online as some other folks (probably a good thing!).
    - lsaferite 2mo ago
      I watch a lot of tech adjacent YT videos mostly. I really haven't heard this being used. So weird the different bubbles we all live in and just don't realize. Is the usage recent or historic? What contexts is it used in? Is it common in American English, British English, or one of the several other groupings?
      - switchbak 2mo ago
        Sounds like it grew out of the rationalist community (eww), and got picked up by various podcasters as it became a phase du jour. See https://www.yuzeh.com/etc/2021-01-24-beliefs-as-structures https://www.yuzeh.com/etc/2021-01-24-beliefs-as-structures - folks have been using it for a while now. Now everyone is saying "hits different", and that one drives me crazy. Old man problems.
oh_my_goodness 2mo ago
How has CPR (or CPR data) changed since 2011? What type of medicine do you practice?
- j-conn 2mo ago
  My only point was that this article shouldn’t be considered authoritative, wanted to put it in perspective for someone surfing hn and just reading the comments The person closest to me was saved by CPR after cardiac arrest (and cooling at the hospital), with no neurological deficits
clukic 2mo ago
100%. CPR initiated within 2 minutes of cardiac arrest increases survival rate by 81%. The fact that CPR is rarely initiated so quickly (and thus survival rates are extremely low), says nothing about the efficacy of CPR. In the best cases where CPR is initiated < 2 mins, and AED shock within < 5mins survival rate can be as high as 50%. https://newsroom.heart.org/news/bystander-cpr-up-to-10-minutes-after-cardiac-arrest-may-protect-brain-function?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://newsroom.heart.org/news/bystander-cpr-up-to-10-minut...
- lostlogin 2mo ago
  I struggle square those numbers with the ones below, showing 11% survival (22% making it to hospital alive). I can’t find a source for it, but I’m told that survival after an arrest in hospital is actually lower, due to the co-morbidities that patients have. https://www.resus.org.nz/assets/OHCA_All_NZ_Feb23.pdf https://www.resus.org.nz/assets/OHCA_All_NZ_Feb23.pdf
  - LorenPechtel 2mo ago
    A big increase in a small number can still be a small number.
  - GoodOldNe 2mo ago
    Cardiac arrest is an incredibly heterogenous condition. A witnessed VF arrest in a young person with an inherited electrical type heart condition who gets compressions and a shock on a gym basketball court can wake up and walk away normal. A 98 year old who codes from sepsis or a fentanyl OD who is profoundly hypoxic or acidemic who gets enough Narcan and CPR to start having a heartbeat again after 15 minutes is very different. The statistics reflect this but you can’t generalize from the general to the specific in this case.
shellfishgene 2mo ago
What are the statistics for quality of life after CPR even if it saves the patients life? I think this is more what the article is about.
LorenPechtel 2mo ago
Note how the data gets contaminated here. CPR is simply buying time, at best it can delay death in the hope the doctors can do something about whatever caused the heart to quit. Usually they can't. AED is different. Despite what Hollywood would have you believe the shocker does not start your heart and it is never used on a stopped heart. Shocking is about the heart beating ineffectively. It has a chance of actually treating the problem, not merely buying time. If the heart is stopped the AED just sits there and says continue CPR. And people blame it for being defective.

by j-conn 2mo ago

bonsai_spool 2mo ago

> Early CPR (+AED if available) absolutely saves lives. Article is from 2011 by a family med doctor. You have to provide a denominator to make this statement. 30-day survival for out-of-hospital CPR is 10%, and discharge from the hospital (let alone functional status) is even lower. CPR is thus a great example of the OP's thesis that doctors refuse certain things based on their poor efficacy. https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/resources/articles/cpr-facts-and-statistics https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/resources/articles/cpr...

kryogen1c 2mo ago
Did you read what you linked? It's not a study of the effects of cpr, it's a list of facts about cardiac arrest that occurs outside a hospital. It explicitly says cpr is life saving: >Survival chances decrease by 10% for every minute that immediate CPR and use of an AED is delayed.
- bonsai_spool 2mo ago
  > Did you read what you linked? It's not a study of the effects of cpr, it's a list of facts about cardiac arrest that occurs outside a hospital. It explicitly says cpr is life saving: Oh my goodness, did YOU read anything on the page? Here's a literal quote with a link to a study you could have followed if you weren't just here for outrage points: "For the past 20 years, the survival rate for cardiac arrest has hovered around 10 percent for out-of-hospital incidences and 21 percent for in-hospital events, yet research shows that high-quality CPR has a significant impact on survival outcomes, whether inside or outside the hospital." link: https://mycares.net/sitepages/uploads/2026/2025_flipbook/index.html?page=52 https://mycares.net/sitepages/uploads/2026/2025_flipbook/ind...
krisoft 2mo ago
> 30-day survival for out-of-hospital CPR is 10% Okay. And what is the 30-day survival for cases where CPR would be otherwise indicated but are not performed? It is a bit like complaining that jumping out of a burning airplane with a parachute is dangerous. Yes, it is. But jumping out of a parachute, or burning inside, is even more dangerous.
- bonsai_spool 2mo ago
  > Okay. And what is the 30-day survival for cases where CPR would be otherwise indicated but are not performed? Great question, but it's obviously not possible to answer. I suspect the survival rate won't be 0, and maybe won't even be less than 10%. The point of this whole subtree is that there are interventions that people wouldn't want for themselves because the expected outcome is very poor.

classichasclass 2mo ago

"Early" is load-bearing. Even brief delays, just mere minutes, significantly decrease survival or positive outcomes. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCOUTCOMES.123.010116 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCOUTCOMES.123.010... It's important to get people to realize the benefits of early CPR and more people should be trained on how to do it, or else it won't be prompt and the outcomes will be worse. That's what the Red Cross and AHA promulgate to the public, in so many words.

lsaferite 2mo ago
I've never heard the term "load-bearing" used outside of the civil engineering world until the more recent versions of Claude suddenly decided everything was "load-bearing". Did you internalize Claude terminology, use Claude to write/translate your post, or lead Claude into temptation by being the OG? Asking out of genuine curiosity and not at all trying to throw shade.
- switchbak 2mo ago
  "Load bearing beliefs" is a thing in the podcast/YouTube world at a minimum. Perhaps you're not as online as some other folks (probably a good thing!).
  - lsaferite 2mo ago
    I watch a lot of tech adjacent YT videos mostly. I really haven't heard this being used. So weird the different bubbles we all live in and just don't realize. Is the usage recent or historic? What contexts is it used in? Is it common in American English, British English, or one of the several other groupings?
    - switchbak 2mo ago
      Sounds like it grew out of the rationalist community (eww), and got picked up by various podcasters as it became a phase du jour. See https://www.yuzeh.com/etc/2021-01-24-beliefs-as-structures https://www.yuzeh.com/etc/2021-01-24-beliefs-as-structures - folks have been using it for a while now. Now everyone is saying "hits different", and that one drives me crazy. Old man problems.

oh_my_goodness 2mo ago

How has CPR (or CPR data) changed since 2011? What type of medicine do you practice?

j-conn 2mo ago
My only point was that this article shouldn’t be considered authoritative, wanted to put it in perspective for someone surfing hn and just reading the comments The person closest to me was saved by CPR after cardiac arrest (and cooling at the hospital), with no neurological deficits

clukic 2mo ago

100%. CPR initiated within 2 minutes of cardiac arrest increases survival rate by 81%. The fact that CPR is rarely initiated so quickly (and thus survival rates are extremely low), says nothing about the efficacy of CPR. In the best cases where CPR is initiated < 2 mins, and AED shock within < 5mins survival rate can be as high as 50%. https://newsroom.heart.org/news/bystander-cpr-up-to-10-minutes-after-cardiac-arrest-may-protect-brain-function?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://newsroom.heart.org/news/bystander-cpr-up-to-10-minut...

lostlogin 2mo ago
I struggle square those numbers with the ones below, showing 11% survival (22% making it to hospital alive). I can’t find a source for it, but I’m told that survival after an arrest in hospital is actually lower, due to the co-morbidities that patients have. https://www.resus.org.nz/assets/OHCA_All_NZ_Feb23.pdf https://www.resus.org.nz/assets/OHCA_All_NZ_Feb23.pdf
- LorenPechtel 2mo ago
  A big increase in a small number can still be a small number.
- GoodOldNe 2mo ago
  Cardiac arrest is an incredibly heterogenous condition. A witnessed VF arrest in a young person with an inherited electrical type heart condition who gets compressions and a shock on a gym basketball court can wake up and walk away normal. A 98 year old who codes from sepsis or a fentanyl OD who is profoundly hypoxic or acidemic who gets enough Narcan and CPR to start having a heartbeat again after 15 minutes is very different. The statistics reflect this but you can’t generalize from the general to the specific in this case.

shellfishgene 2mo ago

What are the statistics for quality of life after CPR even if it saves the patients life? I think this is more what the article is about.

LorenPechtel 2mo ago

Note how the data gets contaminated here. CPR is simply buying time, at best it can delay death in the hope the doctors can do something about whatever caused the heart to quit. Usually they can't. AED is different. Despite what Hollywood would have you believe the shocker does not start your heart and it is never used on a stopped heart. Shocking is about the heart beating ineffectively. It has a chance of actually treating the problem, not merely buying time. If the heart is stopped the AED just sits there and says continue CPR. And people blame it for being defective.