9 ms·

Islam has sure done a number on cultural diversity in the world. It's such a shame that the various cultural holdouts in the Middle East never get much attenti

Islam has sure done a number on cultural diversity in the world. It's such a shame that the various cultural holdouts in the Middle East never get much attention when they're systematically wiped off the map. The Mandaeans in the marshes near Basra will probably be next to disappear into the sands of time. Not even a whisper in the media. Oil sure has a way of drowning out 'human rights' in conversation.

senderista 2mo ago
Try reading about Kafiristan, where primitive Hinduism (think Rig Veda) survived for 3500 years before being wiped out in the 1890s by a British-appointed Islamic despot.
- gaiagraphia 2mo ago
  Always amazed me how the Kalash in Chitral Valley have managed to peacefully get on with things. I guess the terrain helps. I always like to think how the region would've looked if all these remnants of peoples had thriving nations.
  - senderista 2mo ago
    The Kalash are very similar genetically and culturally and are also facing cultural genocide by Islamists. Truly one of the most fascinating ethnic minorities extant.
openuntil3am 2mo ago
Christianity is no different.
- jsemrau 2mo ago
  Please educate yourself more on this. Step out of your bubble. Christian nations have created the cultural and technical achievements over the last thousands of years. There is nothing even remotely comparable.
  - defrost 2mo ago
    The subject wasn't the creation of technology, it was the propensity of theocracies to beat the native out of natives. eg: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2021/sep/06/canada-residential-schools-indigenous-children-cultural-genocide-map https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2021/sep/06...
    - Chu4eeno 2mo ago
      Isn't Canada a secular state? I think the grandparents point was to separate plain old xenophobia from religiously motivated erasure of culture.
      - defrost 2mo ago
        The Vatican is a theocratic state, Catholic churches, schools, etc are effective theocracies. There's a long list of questionable behaviour, eg. enslavement for Jesus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Jesuit_slave_sale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Jesuit_slave_sale
        jsemrau 2mo ago
        There are more people enslaved now than at any point in time in history. Guess the countries.
        defrost 2mo ago
        There are more people now than at any point in time in history. Meanwhile, in history, religions enslaved people. Returning to the point you keep dodging, that includes Christians.
        jsemrau 2mo ago
        I don't believe in the original sin of slavery in Western countries. Slavery has been existed for centuries before and, despite being abolished by Western countries (hint: there were several wars were people lost lives), still exists in China, India, Indonesia, and a large group of Arab countries.
- gaiagraphia 2mo ago
  I didn't claim otherwise. Thankfully Enlightenment values cleaned things up a little. In the current day, I just find it very worrying when you line up a map of global conflicts and where Islam is thriving.
  - graemep 2mo ago
    Which Enlightenment values? Racism? Sexism? Colonialism?
    - KaiserPro 2mo ago
      Translating the arabic texts of science (either copied and expanded from greek, latin and other places, or new research) and claiming that it was widom of the ancients?
  - throwa356262 2mo ago
    What about Ukraine, Venezuela, North Korea, Taiwan, Panama, Greenland, Congo, Mexico, El Salvador, ...
  - throwaway30213 2mo ago
    How many of those global conflicts are being fuelled, driven or outright perpetrated by western countries?
- wqaatwt 2mo ago
  To be fair for the most part Christianity didn’t spread top down through violent conquest (obviously with some huge exceptions) at least in the Middle East and surrounding regions. Also it’s historically better at integrating local cultural practices and languages. Unlike Islam which which usually wiped out local cultural and linguistic identities (during the periods of Arab conquests, that shifted quite a but later on of course)
  - Hikikomori 2mo ago
    Well the crusades, northern crusades and most of imperialism. For the most part it's enough to conquer a place. People below the timing elite would switch religions as it would be beneficial for them, and eventually trickle down to peasants and such.
    - wqaatwt 2mo ago
      > Crusades Many of the regions they invaded were still (or until quite recently) majority Christian. After all initially it was a defensive relief expedition organized by the pope and the Byzantine emperor to free the territories the empire lost in Anatolia very recently. Of course it was massively more successful than anyone anticipated and they just kept on going and then the whole thing got “slightly” out of hand.. But yes, as I said there were some huge exceptions. However early on the way Christianity spread was fundamentally different to Islam. It was usually not through violent conquest but bottom up. European imperialism was quite mixed as well. Christianity played a huge part in the Spanish conquests of the Americas. Much less so in British India and other similar places.
      - Hikikomori 2mo ago
        Very peaceful when you convienently ignore all the violence. Northern crusades were extremely bloody and defeated people would accept baptism or be executed. Charlemange was more of the same deal. Catholic church left pagans to their own devices? Christian history is littered with these examples, it has not been a peaceful religion since it merged with Roman society. The only real good examples you could have are missionaries and top down conversion as kings and such voluntarily switched religions.
- carlosjobim 2mo ago
  Christianity was very different, and the evidence for that is undeniable and gigantic. The fruits of diversity within christendom is offered in great treasure heaps within science, music, art, philosophy, theology, lifestyles, ways of worship, mysteries of the faith, and culture in general. Christianity merged with local cultures, removing some aspects and adding some aspects.
tclancy 2mo ago
Hang on a tick, who made the oil valuable and happily pays for it while turning a blind eye?
- flyinglizard 2mo ago
  It doesn't absolve those who commit the atrocities, even if there are externalities involved. It's not always the White Man's fault - neither in Africa nor the Middle East. We can and should hold the societies in those places to a certain global standard of conduct.
  - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
    Whose standard of conduct should the cultures you deem inferior be held to, exactly?
    - flyinglizard 2mo ago
      That's an easy one - to the same standard we hold Israel. No more, no less.
      - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
        Hell no, that's ridiculous. Israel is a wholesale violator of human rights at massive scale, along with its criminal 5-eyes cronies, and it is in the midst of an imperialist genocide, murdering children every single day. If a state cannot defend itself against children, it is failed and should be refactored by its citizens, immediately and with haste. We also strike the USA off the list, which cannot even take care of its peoples' most basic needs. Switzerland. The answer you're looking for, is Switzerland. /s
MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
>Islam has sure done a number on cultural diversity in the world. So has Christianity and Capitalism.
- fragmede 2mo ago
  And then there's math.
  - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
    Yes, that's definitely done a few numbers.
- miroljub 2mo ago
  Whataboutism
  - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
    No, "so-has'ism". Not whataboutism.
throwaway30213 2mo ago
There is a certain irony in your comment written in English posted on July 11, the 2026th year of Our Lord (though not mine), according to the Gregorian calender (named after Pope Gregory XIII who issued the papal bull that ordained said calendar) at 03:42:12, Universal Standard Time (the local time in London, United Kingdom). And the fact that i am reading this comment in the weekend (the Christian and Jewish days of Sabbath) and replying in similar fashion, (which is mostly historically rooted in the fact that these customs and culture were originally imposed on my country, India by our conquerors, than because it won out in some nebulous contest in the marketplace of ideas)

senderista 2mo ago

Try reading about Kafiristan, where primitive Hinduism (think Rig Veda) survived for 3500 years before being wiped out in the 1890s by a British-appointed Islamic despot.

gaiagraphia 2mo ago
Always amazed me how the Kalash in Chitral Valley have managed to peacefully get on with things. I guess the terrain helps. I always like to think how the region would've looked if all these remnants of peoples had thriving nations.
- senderista 2mo ago
  The Kalash are very similar genetically and culturally and are also facing cultural genocide by Islamists. Truly one of the most fascinating ethnic minorities extant.

openuntil3am 2mo ago

Christianity is no different.

jsemrau 2mo ago
Please educate yourself more on this. Step out of your bubble. Christian nations have created the cultural and technical achievements over the last thousands of years. There is nothing even remotely comparable.
- defrost 2mo ago
  The subject wasn't the creation of technology, it was the propensity of theocracies to beat the native out of natives. eg: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2021/sep/06/canada-residential-schools-indigenous-children-cultural-genocide-map https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2021/sep/06...
  - Chu4eeno 2mo ago
    Isn't Canada a secular state? I think the grandparents point was to separate plain old xenophobia from religiously motivated erasure of culture.
    - defrost 2mo ago
      The Vatican is a theocratic state, Catholic churches, schools, etc are effective theocracies. There's a long list of questionable behaviour, eg. enslavement for Jesus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Jesuit_slave_sale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1838_Jesuit_slave_sale
      - jsemrau 2mo ago
        There are more people enslaved now than at any point in time in history. Guess the countries.
        defrost 2mo ago
        There are more people now than at any point in time in history. Meanwhile, in history, religions enslaved people. Returning to the point you keep dodging, that includes Christians.
        jsemrau 2mo ago
        I don't believe in the original sin of slavery in Western countries. Slavery has been existed for centuries before and, despite being abolished by Western countries (hint: there were several wars were people lost lives), still exists in China, India, Indonesia, and a large group of Arab countries.
gaiagraphia 2mo ago
I didn't claim otherwise. Thankfully Enlightenment values cleaned things up a little. In the current day, I just find it very worrying when you line up a map of global conflicts and where Islam is thriving.
- graemep 2mo ago
  Which Enlightenment values? Racism? Sexism? Colonialism?
  - KaiserPro 2mo ago
    Translating the arabic texts of science (either copied and expanded from greek, latin and other places, or new research) and claiming that it was widom of the ancients?
- throwa356262 2mo ago
  What about Ukraine, Venezuela, North Korea, Taiwan, Panama, Greenland, Congo, Mexico, El Salvador, ...
- throwaway30213 2mo ago
  How many of those global conflicts are being fuelled, driven or outright perpetrated by western countries?
wqaatwt 2mo ago
To be fair for the most part Christianity didn’t spread top down through violent conquest (obviously with some huge exceptions) at least in the Middle East and surrounding regions. Also it’s historically better at integrating local cultural practices and languages. Unlike Islam which which usually wiped out local cultural and linguistic identities (during the periods of Arab conquests, that shifted quite a but later on of course)
- Hikikomori 2mo ago
  Well the crusades, northern crusades and most of imperialism. For the most part it's enough to conquer a place. People below the timing elite would switch religions as it would be beneficial for them, and eventually trickle down to peasants and such.
  - wqaatwt 2mo ago
    > Crusades Many of the regions they invaded were still (or until quite recently) majority Christian. After all initially it was a defensive relief expedition organized by the pope and the Byzantine emperor to free the territories the empire lost in Anatolia very recently. Of course it was massively more successful than anyone anticipated and they just kept on going and then the whole thing got “slightly” out of hand.. But yes, as I said there were some huge exceptions. However early on the way Christianity spread was fundamentally different to Islam. It was usually not through violent conquest but bottom up. European imperialism was quite mixed as well. Christianity played a huge part in the Spanish conquests of the Americas. Much less so in British India and other similar places.
    - Hikikomori 2mo ago
      Very peaceful when you convienently ignore all the violence. Northern crusades were extremely bloody and defeated people would accept baptism or be executed. Charlemange was more of the same deal. Catholic church left pagans to their own devices? Christian history is littered with these examples, it has not been a peaceful religion since it merged with Roman society. The only real good examples you could have are missionaries and top down conversion as kings and such voluntarily switched religions.
carlosjobim 2mo ago
Christianity was very different, and the evidence for that is undeniable and gigantic. The fruits of diversity within christendom is offered in great treasure heaps within science, music, art, philosophy, theology, lifestyles, ways of worship, mysteries of the faith, and culture in general. Christianity merged with local cultures, removing some aspects and adding some aspects.

tclancy 2mo ago

Hang on a tick, who made the oil valuable and happily pays for it while turning a blind eye?

flyinglizard 2mo ago
It doesn't absolve those who commit the atrocities, even if there are externalities involved. It's not always the White Man's fault - neither in Africa nor the Middle East. We can and should hold the societies in those places to a certain global standard of conduct.
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  Whose standard of conduct should the cultures you deem inferior be held to, exactly?
  - flyinglizard 2mo ago
    That's an easy one - to the same standard we hold Israel. No more, no less.
    - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
      Hell no, that's ridiculous. Israel is a wholesale violator of human rights at massive scale, along with its criminal 5-eyes cronies, and it is in the midst of an imperialist genocide, murdering children every single day. If a state cannot defend itself against children, it is failed and should be refactored by its citizens, immediately and with haste. We also strike the USA off the list, which cannot even take care of its peoples' most basic needs. Switzerland. The answer you're looking for, is Switzerland. /s

MomsAVoxell 2mo ago

>Islam has sure done a number on cultural diversity in the world. So has Christianity and Capitalism.

fragmede 2mo ago
And then there's math.
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  Yes, that's definitely done a few numbers.
miroljub 2mo ago
Whataboutism
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  No, "so-has'ism". Not whataboutism.

throwaway30213 2mo ago

There is a certain irony in your comment written in English posted on July 11, the 2026th year of Our Lord (though not mine), according to the Gregorian calender (named after Pope Gregory XIII who issued the papal bull that ordained said calendar) at 03:42:12, Universal Standard Time (the local time in London, United Kingdom). And the fact that i am reading this comment in the weekend (the Christian and Jewish days of Sabbath) and replying in similar fashion, (which is mostly historically rooted in the fact that these customs and culture were originally imposed on my country, India by our conquerors, than because it won out in some nebulous contest in the marketplace of ideas)