7 ms·

I like how you equate 10 year old browser users with luddites?

bradleybuda 2mo ago
It’s very difficult for the average person to use a ten year old browser; in fact I’d offer that the only way to use a ten year old browser is to be an expert and do so intentionally.
- troupo 2mo ago
  Or use a smart TV (most apps on TVs are web apps. Enjoy: https://developer.samsung.com/smarttv/develop/specifications/web-engine-specifications.html https://developer.samsung.com/smarttv/develop/specifications...
- mananaysiempre 2mo ago
  There’s also being poor, or working for an organization that’s poor. In both cases the obsolete(?) software might be various degrees of intentional, but the alternative is usually worse anyway.
- londons_explore 2mo ago
  There are plenty of people with old android phones with no free disk space using ancient browsers. There are plenty of people still using windows 10 with updates turned off or wedged for whatever reason. These people just use the sites that work. They aren't computer experts, and might not even realise why half the internet doesn't work - they just think that's the way things are.
  - lukasbm 2mo ago
    I am an expert and half the internet does not work. That's just the way things are
  - zarzavat 2mo ago
    It's fine to support such configurations by accident, but you shouldn't try to support them intentionally. You will end up dropping support eventually regardless but the skeletons will live on in your codebase as tech debt. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
  - ben_w 2mo ago
    While I agree with your general gist and definitely your final paragraph, > There are plenty of people with old android phones with no free disk space using ancient browsers. How many people have 10 year old phones? I've got an 8 year old iPhone XR which I keep around as a backup/travel device because it's not worth selling, and the battery is… not happy even in airplane mode. For me to have a 10 year old mobile browser, I'd have to have kept the iPhone SE 1 (or was it a 5c?) that I bought second hand in 2018, and not upgraded it since I bought it. I got rid of it because the battery wouldn't hold a charge for 10 minutes.
    - autoexec 2mo ago
      I have a 10 year old cell phone that still gets regular use. Works just fine for things like phone calls, texts, youtube (newpipe), termux, and note taking. Original battery isn't great at this point, but a new one is maybe $15. Zero reason to replace it.
  - mattmatheus 2mo ago
    I'm not sure this is a realistic use case to try and support. A 10 year old android phone likely has a battery life measured in 10s of minutes, and really isn't something we need to worry about.
    - swiftcoder 2mo ago
      You get the guy at the mall to swap in a new battery for $50 in most parts of the world. Its cheaper to do that every few years than buy a new phone, and I have several family members who refuse to upgrade on principle, because modern phones grew too large for their hands/pockets
      - londons_explore 2mo ago
        Usually you get a guy at the mall to swap in a new battery for $10. For $50 you can buy a whole new phone (refurb that is 4 yrs old from some other country)
    - epihelix 2mo ago
      I'm currently using >7 year old Android phone. The batteries on these things are child's play to replace (especially after you've done it the first time and removed the pointless adhesive in the battery compartment). I will consider upgrading once new devices return to feature parity with my current device (apparently never). While I'm of course an edge case, the fact that Google, Apple and Samsung all provide >5 years OS support for devices now (and battery replacement services) suggests that many people hang onto their old phones for a long time. That said, I'm not using 7 year old software on my phone. That would be insane. And my browser (fennec) was updated just a few days ago.
  - alternatex 2mo ago
    I've a Xiaomi Mi 6 phone (2017 model) that I still use as a fridge-mounted shopping list and it's using the latest version of Chrome. I think it would be quite the stretch to find a user using a 10 year old browser.
  - Macha 2mo ago
    Eventually you are making things worse for your vast majority of users when you have to e.g. make them install a native app for a video call or use a TLS version that is broken to support those Gingerbread Android phones
  - zamadatix 2mo ago
    I think you're conflating "old device" with "10 year old browser" here. E.g. for: > There are plenty of people still using windows 10 with updates turned off or wedged for whatever reason. It'd be "the pool of people who installed Windows 10 immediately in the launch year but somehow accidentally blocked their browser from updating in the 10 years since, weren't able to fix the issue as the web slowly stopped working, and are stuck using that computer anyways" not "the pool of people still on Windows 10". The latter won't have many non-intentionally pushed into "10 year old browser status" until 2038 at the earliest.
    - rvba 2mo ago
      When will Microsoft stop doing Windows 10 security updates? I have a 10 year old laptop with 32GB of RAM, GTX 970 6GB and an SSD. For many things it is better than any 16GB work issued laptop (that often come with integrated cards - so you wont be able to run any AI model on them). Although the old ssd is starting to show its age (perhaps a full system reinstall would solve this, other option is to get a new one). The old laptop does not have UEFI so it could not get the (free for some time) Windows 10 to 11 upgrade. I am smart enough to install Firefox on it and update it, but the official Windows 10 updates will stop coming soon. I was effectively kicked out by Microsoft because my device is "old". Even if it is beefy enough to browse the internet and watch youtube. Note that I bought a new beefy laptop now that I hope to use for the next 5+ years (hopefully more), but who knows if they wont come out with some new idea, like UEFI 2.0 for Windows 12 - that again will mean we need to buy new hardware and new windows. On an unrelated note I want to turn the old laptop to a linux machine - for fun and learning, but dont have the time for that.
      - zamadatix 2mo ago
        > When will Microsoft stop doing Windows 10 security updates? Last October, unless you are on an LTS type version - in which case somewhere between 2028-2032 (depending on the exact version). Edge will still update until at least 2028 even though the OS stopped receiving updates... though I'm not sure I would wish either of those usage scenarios on someone :). > The old laptop does not have UEFI so it could not get the (free for some time) Windows 10 to 11 upgrade. The free registration, they never actually axed the program at the end date https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/discussions/windows10space/is-the-windows-10-upgrade-still-free-to-windows-11/4502917 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/discussions/windows10spa.... Just make sure you use the same edition (e.g. Pro -> Pro). You also don't have to do an in place upgrade to do it. In your specific scenario, you would have to bypass the install requirements in the installer to get around the lack of UEFI though. Hope that helps, Windows 11 is definitely a bit of an annoying step (even once it's installed).
  - Natfan 2mo ago
    > windows 10 or windows 8[.1], or windows 7, or windows xp... there's a lot of old hardware out there, not every is rich/tech savvy (see also: old people) enough to purchase a new device even 10 years later
- jollyllama 2mo ago
  That's a choice by the people who make websites and browsers that forces the average person to buy a new computer. If we all cared about letting people use old computers, this wouldn't be the case.
  - esrauch 2mo ago
    I wouldn't conflate old computers and old browsers. I still use an over 10 year old laptop and it still has a latest browser.
    - anoneng 2mo ago
      Right. That problem is bloat, not lack of legacy support. Adding (already bloated) legacy support to already bloated software just makes bloat worse.
- intrasight 2mo ago
  I doubt that for the hackernews audience that the age of the browsers is an issue. I would say in practice that 90% is nowhere near what is achieved - that it's closer to 90% and amongst the hackernews audience probably lucky if it gets to 50% because of our use of anti-tracking and ad blockers.
- swiftcoder 2mo ago
  Respectfully, you may live in a bubble of fairly tech-savvy folks. Most of my extended family run 10+ year old laptops as their daily drivers. Their phones are often on the second or third battery replacement. They don't install updates very often (if at all). For the most part they are still more proficient with tech than many of their peers.
  - Dylan16807 2mo ago
    > They don't install updates very often (if at all). The average person with zero tech savvy has their browser updating itself regularly with no input from the user. Are they escaping that?
- compiler-guy 2mo ago
  I support a bevy of older people with older computers, senior-citizen types. Upgrades are expensive. Monetarily, but also in retraining. These folks don't want the latest UI, they want what is familiar, and retraining is super annoying. Computers that were EOL a few years ago, running ten-year-old browsers, are absolutely routine.
pixl97 2mo ago
Well, being these days that a browser over 5 minutes old probably has a security flaw, it's not much of a reach.
jawilson2 2mo ago
Ha, I had the same thought, if you actually know the history of Luddites vs the more colloquial usage of "someone who hates all technology."
__alexs 2mo ago
The same way people generally equate luddism with anything. By entirely misunderstanding what it was to make a point that sounds snappy without all of that boring understanding history stuff.

It’s very difficult for the average person to use a ten year old browser; in fact I’d offer that the only way to use a ten year old browser is to be an expert and do so intentionally.

troupo 2mo ago
Or use a smart TV (most apps on TVs are web apps. Enjoy: https://developer.samsung.com/smarttv/develop/specifications/web-engine-specifications.html https://developer.samsung.com/smarttv/develop/specifications...
mananaysiempre 2mo ago
There’s also being poor, or working for an organization that’s poor. In both cases the obsolete(?) software might be various degrees of intentional, but the alternative is usually worse anyway.
londons_explore 2mo ago
There are plenty of people with old android phones with no free disk space using ancient browsers. There are plenty of people still using windows 10 with updates turned off or wedged for whatever reason. These people just use the sites that work. They aren't computer experts, and might not even realise why half the internet doesn't work - they just think that's the way things are.
- lukasbm 2mo ago
  I am an expert and half the internet does not work. That's just the way things are
- zarzavat 2mo ago
  It's fine to support such configurations by accident, but you shouldn't try to support them intentionally. You will end up dropping support eventually regardless but the skeletons will live on in your codebase as tech debt. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
- ben_w 2mo ago
  While I agree with your general gist and definitely your final paragraph, > There are plenty of people with old android phones with no free disk space using ancient browsers. How many people have 10 year old phones? I've got an 8 year old iPhone XR which I keep around as a backup/travel device because it's not worth selling, and the battery is… not happy even in airplane mode. For me to have a 10 year old mobile browser, I'd have to have kept the iPhone SE 1 (or was it a 5c?) that I bought second hand in 2018, and not upgraded it since I bought it. I got rid of it because the battery wouldn't hold a charge for 10 minutes.
  - autoexec 2mo ago
    I have a 10 year old cell phone that still gets regular use. Works just fine for things like phone calls, texts, youtube (newpipe), termux, and note taking. Original battery isn't great at this point, but a new one is maybe $15. Zero reason to replace it.
- mattmatheus 2mo ago
  I'm not sure this is a realistic use case to try and support. A 10 year old android phone likely has a battery life measured in 10s of minutes, and really isn't something we need to worry about.
  - swiftcoder 2mo ago
    You get the guy at the mall to swap in a new battery for $50 in most parts of the world. Its cheaper to do that every few years than buy a new phone, and I have several family members who refuse to upgrade on principle, because modern phones grew too large for their hands/pockets
    - londons_explore 2mo ago
      Usually you get a guy at the mall to swap in a new battery for $10. For $50 you can buy a whole new phone (refurb that is 4 yrs old from some other country)
  - epihelix 2mo ago
    I'm currently using >7 year old Android phone. The batteries on these things are child's play to replace (especially after you've done it the first time and removed the pointless adhesive in the battery compartment). I will consider upgrading once new devices return to feature parity with my current device (apparently never). While I'm of course an edge case, the fact that Google, Apple and Samsung all provide >5 years OS support for devices now (and battery replacement services) suggests that many people hang onto their old phones for a long time. That said, I'm not using 7 year old software on my phone. That would be insane. And my browser (fennec) was updated just a few days ago.
- alternatex 2mo ago
  I've a Xiaomi Mi 6 phone (2017 model) that I still use as a fridge-mounted shopping list and it's using the latest version of Chrome. I think it would be quite the stretch to find a user using a 10 year old browser.
- Macha 2mo ago
  Eventually you are making things worse for your vast majority of users when you have to e.g. make them install a native app for a video call or use a TLS version that is broken to support those Gingerbread Android phones
- zamadatix 2mo ago
  I think you're conflating "old device" with "10 year old browser" here. E.g. for: > There are plenty of people still using windows 10 with updates turned off or wedged for whatever reason. It'd be "the pool of people who installed Windows 10 immediately in the launch year but somehow accidentally blocked their browser from updating in the 10 years since, weren't able to fix the issue as the web slowly stopped working, and are stuck using that computer anyways" not "the pool of people still on Windows 10". The latter won't have many non-intentionally pushed into "10 year old browser status" until 2038 at the earliest.
  - rvba 2mo ago
    When will Microsoft stop doing Windows 10 security updates? I have a 10 year old laptop with 32GB of RAM, GTX 970 6GB and an SSD. For many things it is better than any 16GB work issued laptop (that often come with integrated cards - so you wont be able to run any AI model on them). Although the old ssd is starting to show its age (perhaps a full system reinstall would solve this, other option is to get a new one). The old laptop does not have UEFI so it could not get the (free for some time) Windows 10 to 11 upgrade. I am smart enough to install Firefox on it and update it, but the official Windows 10 updates will stop coming soon. I was effectively kicked out by Microsoft because my device is "old". Even if it is beefy enough to browse the internet and watch youtube. Note that I bought a new beefy laptop now that I hope to use for the next 5+ years (hopefully more), but who knows if they wont come out with some new idea, like UEFI 2.0 for Windows 12 - that again will mean we need to buy new hardware and new windows. On an unrelated note I want to turn the old laptop to a linux machine - for fun and learning, but dont have the time for that.
    - zamadatix 2mo ago
      > When will Microsoft stop doing Windows 10 security updates? Last October, unless you are on an LTS type version - in which case somewhere between 2028-2032 (depending on the exact version). Edge will still update until at least 2028 even though the OS stopped receiving updates... though I'm not sure I would wish either of those usage scenarios on someone :). > The old laptop does not have UEFI so it could not get the (free for some time) Windows 10 to 11 upgrade. The free registration, they never actually axed the program at the end date https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/discussions/windows10space/is-the-windows-10-upgrade-still-free-to-windows-11/4502917 https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/discussions/windows10spa.... Just make sure you use the same edition (e.g. Pro -> Pro). You also don't have to do an in place upgrade to do it. In your specific scenario, you would have to bypass the install requirements in the installer to get around the lack of UEFI though. Hope that helps, Windows 11 is definitely a bit of an annoying step (even once it's installed).
- Natfan 2mo ago
  > windows 10 or windows 8[.1], or windows 7, or windows xp... there's a lot of old hardware out there, not every is rich/tech savvy (see also: old people) enough to purchase a new device even 10 years later
jollyllama 2mo ago
That's a choice by the people who make websites and browsers that forces the average person to buy a new computer. If we all cared about letting people use old computers, this wouldn't be the case.
- esrauch 2mo ago
  I wouldn't conflate old computers and old browsers. I still use an over 10 year old laptop and it still has a latest browser.
  - anoneng 2mo ago
    Right. That problem is bloat, not lack of legacy support. Adding (already bloated) legacy support to already bloated software just makes bloat worse.
intrasight 2mo ago
I doubt that for the hackernews audience that the age of the browsers is an issue. I would say in practice that 90% is nowhere near what is achieved - that it's closer to 90% and amongst the hackernews audience probably lucky if it gets to 50% because of our use of anti-tracking and ad blockers.
swiftcoder 2mo ago
Respectfully, you may live in a bubble of fairly tech-savvy folks. Most of my extended family run 10+ year old laptops as their daily drivers. Their phones are often on the second or third battery replacement. They don't install updates very often (if at all). For the most part they are still more proficient with tech than many of their peers.
- Dylan16807 2mo ago
  > They don't install updates very often (if at all). The average person with zero tech savvy has their browser updating itself regularly with no input from the user. Are they escaping that?
compiler-guy 2mo ago
I support a bevy of older people with older computers, senior-citizen types. Upgrades are expensive. Monetarily, but also in retraining. These folks don't want the latest UI, they want what is familiar, and retraining is super annoying. Computers that were EOL a few years ago, running ten-year-old browsers, are absolutely routine.

pixl97 2mo ago

Well, being these days that a browser over 5 minutes old probably has a security flaw, it's not much of a reach.

jawilson2 2mo ago

Ha, I had the same thought, if you actually know the history of Luddites vs the more colloquial usage of "someone who hates all technology."

__alexs 2mo ago

The same way people generally equate luddism with anything. By entirely misunderstanding what it was to make a point that sounds snappy without all of that boring understanding history stuff.