10 ms·

I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in posit

I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in positions of leadership, your chances of "getting ahead" are going to be limited, especially when you're competing against natives. The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be trusted in a senior/leadership position (no matter how good your German language skills are). The good part, from my experience the people here are great, friendly, and yeh it takes time to get to know them but it pays off in the long run. But professionally... it's complicated. So while people come here, work and stay for a few years, they're going to leave when they realise that despite their best efforts, they need to do 10x more than someone who is simply "a native" to the country (or... you'll stay in a position and just rot until you move on). And this sadly affects applications for jobs (a photo is pretty much required which would be considered illegal in other countries like the UK), apply for apartments (which country is your last name from... automatic rejection), just to mention a few key cases that really affect immigration. i've lived+worked in 4 different countries on 3 continents and i think you always have to expect to adjust to the culture, it's not going to change for you, nor should it. But if you want to progress professionally (and Germany NEEDS tech-imports, the tech culture here is a disaster, it's embarrassing) you're going to have to promote these people into high positions, not just view them as "cheaper labour".

laylower 2mo ago
You are right I think - but this is the case for everywhere besides startups in the US Try going to Singapore, Japan, the UK, Netherlands, god forbid France, Germany, Latin America. Try going into engineering in major US companies - you know how hiring works and who is prioritized over whom. If you are not local or you are not part of the inner circle of management the glass ceiling is there. Some would say that it's just empirical evidence and they never had this problem. I would call them lucky.
whateverboat 2mo ago
I think this is the biggest factor. Ambitious people who want to become rich do not have any opportunities in Germany. It is good for people who are content with a middling but comfortable life. That's why most ambitious people leave.
- 4gotunameagain 2mo ago
  This is not a bad thing. Wealth inequality is destructive for societies.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    It has to be balanced against forward progress.
  - rawbot 2mo ago
    I agree with the feeling, but the market doesn't. Inflation in the last 8 years has been slowly strangling families. And that's without mentioning the fact that owning an apartment or home is basically impossible without inheritance or being upper-class. So for most middle-class families, the work grind will continue for the rest of their life, until retirement (if it even exists by then), without anything to show for it (owning the place you live in). How are people even going to be able to pay for their rent between retirement (67 years old) and assisted living (+75 years old)?
    - account42 2mo ago
      Inflation outpacing median income is a symptom of wealth inequality.
  - whateverboat 2mo ago
    Yeah, these people are not looking to become super rich. They are coming from very poor backgrounds (compared to median wealth in Germany) and they want to reach upper middle class levels (wealth wise, not income wise) for those countries.
  - Arnt 2mo ago
    Uh-huh. A small town where I've lived was very much like its neighbours, but one particular neigbour was different in two clearly visible ways: ① there were (still are) more rich people in that neighbour and ② it was much easier to get financing for starting and growing companies in that neighbour.
  - 2mo ago
zihotki 2mo ago
That resonates a lot with my experience in Netherlands. It's way friendlier for expats but the barrier is there
IAmBroom 2mo ago
[flagged]
- dang 2mo ago
  "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - arjie 2mo ago
    > > > The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be trusted in a senior/leadership position (no matter how good your German language skills are). Can someone explain what the "strongest plausible interpretation of this" is in this context? It sounds like straightforward xenophobia from the Germans but the other guy who said so got flagged by the moderator. That implies that the strong interpretation is entirely obvious but I don't know what it is, and I can't get it out of an LLM. If it were that anyone takes a long time before they're trusted, that's institutional slowness. If the slowness is reserved for an "outsider" and not for a "native" then that feels like the natural interpretation is xenophobia. I can understand why a foreigner in Germany (the outsider here) would be hesitant to say anything so I understand that part.
    - dang 2mo ago
      You're adding a lot of assumptions in order to reach that conclusion. Generally it's not a good idea to reduce someone else's comment to a blunt denunciation, and especially not when you're adding a putdown of your own ("that is a LOT of words"). The commenter was obviously offering a complex expression of their experience and not just circomlocuting a crudity.
      - arjie 2mo ago
        I assume you mean "you" here in the sense of "one" because I didn't say those other things. And certainly the "that is a lot of words" framing is something I personally dislike as well, but the conclusion seems accurate, doesn't it? If German companies routinely have a glass ceiling for foreigners that they don't have for natives then surely in the American context we'd consider that bigotry of some sort and certainly if it were in the US we'd consider it a Title VII violation of the CRA on the basis of national origin. I think it would help to provide an example by construction: relax one or more of the assumptions you think are being smuggled in and describe how it is not xenophobia to do what the German organizations OP was at were doing. I'm struggling to come up with something here - some kind of cultural mismatch not related to language fluency? What it seems to me is that the OP, immigrant that he is, is describing a fairly xenophobic society that he nonetheless has to live in and is therefore not using explicit labels for.
dgellow 2mo ago
Just to add, the experience can be quite different between Bundesland (for example the tech culture in Berlin can be really decent IMHO). And the Bewerbungsfoto is technically not allowed to be required (but often expected in practice, though I personally don’t remember sending one). Overall that comment sounds quite true based on my experience. I had a way better time contracting for foreign companies from Germany
gehwartzen 2mo ago
One thing I will point out is that some of this partially due to coming to Germany with a US passport. Specifically, banks in Europe are increasingly weary of allowing US passport holders to open full account due to the international reach of the IRS and the additional bourdons it creates for banks. A US citizen living abroad still has a responsibilities with regard to reporting financial activities to the IRS. This is an extra liability and risk for foreign banks so in many cases they chose to simply not deal with Americans. I was born in Germany and have a German passport. When I was a teen my family moved to the US and and have since also gotten my American citizenship. I have been considering moving back. I talked to my aunt who lives in Switzerland who told me not to bother trying to open a Swiss account it’s virtually impossible as long as you have a US passport. Germany is slightly better but at most there are 2-3 (mainly online only) banks where you might be able to get a basic (ie bare bones) account. The IRS has the ability to compel foreign banks to freeze assets of US citizens living abroad or at least to make it a paperwork nightmare for them. I can understand why a company might not want to promote an individual to senior positions if banks are weary of dealing with them.
- Cyph0n 2mo ago
  This is the case virtually everywhere thanks to FATCA, unless the country’s banking system is OK with getting punished. It applies not just to US citizens, but also to US permanent residents.
- FabCH 2mo ago
  Your aunt is sort of correct, but not really. If you move to CH on your German EU passport, register at the local authorities and get your residency card, most traditional Swiss banks will open an account for you. You just won’t be able to do it online or with the Neo-banks. But an actual physical UBS office or Kantonbank will eventually be able to handle the paperwork for you.
  - hparadiz 2mo ago
    I thought it was a regular thing for Americans or anyone in the world to be able to make a Swiss account? Is that not the case? Or is it different if you live there?
jmyeet 2mo ago
One thought I hate reading this is: do you need upward mobility? It's a serious question because in an ideal (IMHO) society, people can have full and satisfying lives with security and family without becoming a CEO. In the US, for example, there's an obsession with "getting ahead" but, by definition, only so many people can get ahead. And why do they want to? Because, at least in part, a basic job in insufficient to make ends meet in most cases now. This is a form of coercion. This is orthogonal to the issue of German social inclusion and forms of xenophobia (eg in the housing applications you mention). Personally I'd rather in a society where everyone's needs are met and it's not a race against a rising tide where only 20% of the population are above it.
- carlosjobim 2mo ago
  > by definition, only so many people can get ahead That's the core of the great lie which so massively limits people. Everybody can get ahead. It's not about comparing yourself with others - and has never been about that. That's school boy logic, to think in limited terms like that. Can all members of an orchestra become better musicians, even though some will still be better than others? Can all members of a football team become better players? You can always become better at what you do, no matter what other people are doing. You are almost guaranteed to become better at what you do, if you're doing it everyday. The purpose of a business is to deliver productivity to the purchaser. The purpose of employing workers is for them to do work. As they become better at their work, they will produce more and should be paid more and given more responsibilities. Internal company hierarchy has little to do with it. It's not about getting in front of the other guy.
- parheric 2mo ago
  I don’t think it’s a question of needing anything. Do you need to immigrate to Germany? Or another country for that matter? No - why do you do it? For upward mobility in a job market that is screaming out for foreign skilled workers. When that upward mobility is no longer there, why should they stay?
  - Schlagbohrer 2mo ago
    There are other reasons such as better quality of life as a working class person, which one can have in many EU countries, but cannot have in the USA.
aleph_minus_one 2mo ago
> hey need to do 10x more than someone who is simply "a native" to the country (or... you'll stay in a position and just rot until you move on). Staying in a position for a long part of one's life is a very common situation for many Germans, too. The whole concept of that you must have a career seems to be deeply ingrained in US mentality. So, I have a strong feeling that a lot of immigrants who feel they hit a glass ceiling are rather used to the USA understanding how a career works, and think because they are not promoted, they are discriminated against, when in reality it's rather that a promotion to a completely new role/title is much more uncommon in Germany than in the USA.
- avemuri 2mo ago
  I think this is the type of answer that is frustrating to non-Germans. Hey don't look at that person who got promoted ahead of you despite you being more qualified. Look here instead at all these other people who didn't get promoted.
- carlosjobim 2mo ago
  > The whole concept of that you must have a career seems to be deeply ingrained in US mentality. But it makes more sense. If you're a normal human being, the longer you work with something the better you become at it. That's just natural. And then you should have your compensation increased to reflect that, or move to other ventures where your skills have better use.
  - aleph_minus_one 2mo ago
    > or move to other ventures where your skills have better use. Switching the job too often is a red flag for many companies in Germany. The system in Germany is based on the idea that it should both not be so easy to quit your position at the company and for the company to fire you (cancellation periods hold for both sides).
    - carlosjobim 2mo ago
      Then it's no wonder if skilled workers want to leave.
programmertote 2mo ago
That sounds similar to what you experience in the US especially as a first gen immigrant. I see a glass ceiling (for the lack of a better word) here. Most of the leadership positions are occupied by US-born (mostly Caucasian) and/or to some degree, Indian immigrants. Sometimes, I truly wonder how/why this person got into the leadership role because it's fairly obvious that s/he lacks the essential qualities required for it. The only explanation is the politicking (typical in the corporate world) and somehow being able to impress others by talking fast and/or smooth (while giving false promises and failing upward). All of this to say that your observation in Germany doesn't sound that different from mine in the US (been here for over 20+ years; been in a manager/director role in data for almost a decade).
- hunterpayne 2mo ago
  Have you ever worked for a European company? You could say the exact same things about every country on the planet except the US version is probably less extreme. Also the US companies are probably more complex to run so its more visible. I once worked for a company that probably manages some of your retirement. They had a team of 50 people working on a compiler for an internal language. Not a single person on that team knew how to actually write a compiler and the executive in charge was both the most arrogant and least capable executive I have ever worked with. So the idea that this is somehow US specific is pretty absurd.
  - programmertote 2mo ago
    I think you misunderstood my comment. What I'm saying is that the same issue can be observed in the US (i.e., it's not Germany specific).
Derbasti 2mo ago
The problem is, management requires stronger language skills than engineering. While an engineer can usually get by with good English, a manager in a German company with German clients and German bosses also requires excellent command of German. I would think that this would equally apply to any other country and their native language. Perhaps Germany is a bit unusual in that it fosters a strong small-company culture, with few levels of management. There is no "engineering ladder" in a company with only a single layer of management between engineers and CEO.
blablabla123 2mo ago
> a photo is pretty much required which would be considered illegal in other countries like the UK I work since over 15 years as SWE and have been job hopping most of the time. Only during one job hunt I put a (professional) photo on my CV. While a photo on the CV is obviously not illegal, employers aren't allowed to demand it since 2 decades. But I agree there is a bias. While I'm fully German so to say, I have a foreign last name literally from centuries ago. For most of the time this was never an issue, at best a conversation starter. But companies where the daily language is German (hint: these companies usually suck) I definitely had weird situations before. Also with some recruiters, especially from the UK.

laylower 2mo ago

You are right I think - but this is the case for everywhere besides startups in the US Try going to Singapore, Japan, the UK, Netherlands, god forbid France, Germany, Latin America. Try going into engineering in major US companies - you know how hiring works and who is prioritized over whom. If you are not local or you are not part of the inner circle of management the glass ceiling is there. Some would say that it's just empirical evidence and they never had this problem. I would call them lucky.

whateverboat 2mo ago

I think this is the biggest factor. Ambitious people who want to become rich do not have any opportunities in Germany. It is good for people who are content with a middling but comfortable life. That's why most ambitious people leave.

4gotunameagain 2mo ago
This is not a bad thing. Wealth inequality is destructive for societies.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  It has to be balanced against forward progress.
- rawbot 2mo ago
  I agree with the feeling, but the market doesn't. Inflation in the last 8 years has been slowly strangling families. And that's without mentioning the fact that owning an apartment or home is basically impossible without inheritance or being upper-class. So for most middle-class families, the work grind will continue for the rest of their life, until retirement (if it even exists by then), without anything to show for it (owning the place you live in). How are people even going to be able to pay for their rent between retirement (67 years old) and assisted living (+75 years old)?
  - account42 2mo ago
    Inflation outpacing median income is a symptom of wealth inequality.
- whateverboat 2mo ago
  Yeah, these people are not looking to become super rich. They are coming from very poor backgrounds (compared to median wealth in Germany) and they want to reach upper middle class levels (wealth wise, not income wise) for those countries.
- Arnt 2mo ago
  Uh-huh. A small town where I've lived was very much like its neighbours, but one particular neigbour was different in two clearly visible ways: ① there were (still are) more rich people in that neighbour and ② it was much easier to get financing for starting and growing companies in that neighbour.
- 2mo ago

zihotki 2mo ago

That resonates a lot with my experience in Netherlands. It's way friendlier for expats but the barrier is there

IAmBroom 2mo ago

[flagged]

dang 2mo ago
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- arjie 2mo ago
  > > > The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be trusted in a senior/leadership position (no matter how good your German language skills are). Can someone explain what the "strongest plausible interpretation of this" is in this context? It sounds like straightforward xenophobia from the Germans but the other guy who said so got flagged by the moderator. That implies that the strong interpretation is entirely obvious but I don't know what it is, and I can't get it out of an LLM. If it were that anyone takes a long time before they're trusted, that's institutional slowness. If the slowness is reserved for an "outsider" and not for a "native" then that feels like the natural interpretation is xenophobia. I can understand why a foreigner in Germany (the outsider here) would be hesitant to say anything so I understand that part.
  - dang 2mo ago
    You're adding a lot of assumptions in order to reach that conclusion. Generally it's not a good idea to reduce someone else's comment to a blunt denunciation, and especially not when you're adding a putdown of your own ("that is a LOT of words"). The commenter was obviously offering a complex expression of their experience and not just circomlocuting a crudity.
    - arjie 2mo ago
      I assume you mean "you" here in the sense of "one" because I didn't say those other things. And certainly the "that is a lot of words" framing is something I personally dislike as well, but the conclusion seems accurate, doesn't it? If German companies routinely have a glass ceiling for foreigners that they don't have for natives then surely in the American context we'd consider that bigotry of some sort and certainly if it were in the US we'd consider it a Title VII violation of the CRA on the basis of national origin. I think it would help to provide an example by construction: relax one or more of the assumptions you think are being smuggled in and describe how it is not xenophobia to do what the German organizations OP was at were doing. I'm struggling to come up with something here - some kind of cultural mismatch not related to language fluency? What it seems to me is that the OP, immigrant that he is, is describing a fairly xenophobic society that he nonetheless has to live in and is therefore not using explicit labels for.

dgellow 2mo ago

Just to add, the experience can be quite different between Bundesland (for example the tech culture in Berlin can be really decent IMHO). And the Bewerbungsfoto is technically not allowed to be required (but often expected in practice, though I personally don’t remember sending one). Overall that comment sounds quite true based on my experience. I had a way better time contracting for foreign companies from Germany

gehwartzen 2mo ago

One thing I will point out is that some of this partially due to coming to Germany with a US passport. Specifically, banks in Europe are increasingly weary of allowing US passport holders to open full account due to the international reach of the IRS and the additional bourdons it creates for banks. A US citizen living abroad still has a responsibilities with regard to reporting financial activities to the IRS. This is an extra liability and risk for foreign banks so in many cases they chose to simply not deal with Americans. I was born in Germany and have a German passport. When I was a teen my family moved to the US and and have since also gotten my American citizenship. I have been considering moving back. I talked to my aunt who lives in Switzerland who told me not to bother trying to open a Swiss account it’s virtually impossible as long as you have a US passport. Germany is slightly better but at most there are 2-3 (mainly online only) banks where you might be able to get a basic (ie bare bones) account. The IRS has the ability to compel foreign banks to freeze assets of US citizens living abroad or at least to make it a paperwork nightmare for them. I can understand why a company might not want to promote an individual to senior positions if banks are weary of dealing with them.

Cyph0n 2mo ago
This is the case virtually everywhere thanks to FATCA, unless the country’s banking system is OK with getting punished. It applies not just to US citizens, but also to US permanent residents.
FabCH 2mo ago
Your aunt is sort of correct, but not really. If you move to CH on your German EU passport, register at the local authorities and get your residency card, most traditional Swiss banks will open an account for you. You just won’t be able to do it online or with the Neo-banks. But an actual physical UBS office or Kantonbank will eventually be able to handle the paperwork for you.
- hparadiz 2mo ago
  I thought it was a regular thing for Americans or anyone in the world to be able to make a Swiss account? Is that not the case? Or is it different if you live there?

jmyeet 2mo ago

One thought I hate reading this is: do you need upward mobility? It's a serious question because in an ideal (IMHO) society, people can have full and satisfying lives with security and family without becoming a CEO. In the US, for example, there's an obsession with "getting ahead" but, by definition, only so many people can get ahead. And why do they want to? Because, at least in part, a basic job in insufficient to make ends meet in most cases now. This is a form of coercion. This is orthogonal to the issue of German social inclusion and forms of xenophobia (eg in the housing applications you mention). Personally I'd rather in a society where everyone's needs are met and it's not a race against a rising tide where only 20% of the population are above it.

carlosjobim 2mo ago
> by definition, only so many people can get ahead That's the core of the great lie which so massively limits people. Everybody can get ahead. It's not about comparing yourself with others - and has never been about that. That's school boy logic, to think in limited terms like that. Can all members of an orchestra become better musicians, even though some will still be better than others? Can all members of a football team become better players? You can always become better at what you do, no matter what other people are doing. You are almost guaranteed to become better at what you do, if you're doing it everyday. The purpose of a business is to deliver productivity to the purchaser. The purpose of employing workers is for them to do work. As they become better at their work, they will produce more and should be paid more and given more responsibilities. Internal company hierarchy has little to do with it. It's not about getting in front of the other guy.
parheric 2mo ago
I don’t think it’s a question of needing anything. Do you need to immigrate to Germany? Or another country for that matter? No - why do you do it? For upward mobility in a job market that is screaming out for foreign skilled workers. When that upward mobility is no longer there, why should they stay?
- Schlagbohrer 2mo ago
  There are other reasons such as better quality of life as a working class person, which one can have in many EU countries, but cannot have in the USA.

aleph_minus_one 2mo ago

> hey need to do 10x more than someone who is simply "a native" to the country (or... you'll stay in a position and just rot until you move on). Staying in a position for a long part of one's life is a very common situation for many Germans, too. The whole concept of that you must have a career seems to be deeply ingrained in US mentality. So, I have a strong feeling that a lot of immigrants who feel they hit a glass ceiling are rather used to the USA understanding how a career works, and think because they are not promoted, they are discriminated against, when in reality it's rather that a promotion to a completely new role/title is much more uncommon in Germany than in the USA.

avemuri 2mo ago
I think this is the type of answer that is frustrating to non-Germans. Hey don't look at that person who got promoted ahead of you despite you being more qualified. Look here instead at all these other people who didn't get promoted.
carlosjobim 2mo ago
> The whole concept of that you must have a career seems to be deeply ingrained in US mentality. But it makes more sense. If you're a normal human being, the longer you work with something the better you become at it. That's just natural. And then you should have your compensation increased to reflect that, or move to other ventures where your skills have better use.
- aleph_minus_one 2mo ago
  > or move to other ventures where your skills have better use. Switching the job too often is a red flag for many companies in Germany. The system in Germany is based on the idea that it should both not be so easy to quit your position at the company and for the company to fire you (cancellation periods hold for both sides).
  - carlosjobim 2mo ago
    Then it's no wonder if skilled workers want to leave.

programmertote 2mo ago

That sounds similar to what you experience in the US especially as a first gen immigrant. I see a glass ceiling (for the lack of a better word) here. Most of the leadership positions are occupied by US-born (mostly Caucasian) and/or to some degree, Indian immigrants. Sometimes, I truly wonder how/why this person got into the leadership role because it's fairly obvious that s/he lacks the essential qualities required for it. The only explanation is the politicking (typical in the corporate world) and somehow being able to impress others by talking fast and/or smooth (while giving false promises and failing upward). All of this to say that your observation in Germany doesn't sound that different from mine in the US (been here for over 20+ years; been in a manager/director role in data for almost a decade).

hunterpayne 2mo ago
Have you ever worked for a European company? You could say the exact same things about every country on the planet except the US version is probably less extreme. Also the US companies are probably more complex to run so its more visible. I once worked for a company that probably manages some of your retirement. They had a team of 50 people working on a compiler for an internal language. Not a single person on that team knew how to actually write a compiler and the executive in charge was both the most arrogant and least capable executive I have ever worked with. So the idea that this is somehow US specific is pretty absurd.
- programmertote 2mo ago
  I think you misunderstood my comment. What I'm saying is that the same issue can be observed in the US (i.e., it's not Germany specific).

Derbasti 2mo ago

The problem is, management requires stronger language skills than engineering. While an engineer can usually get by with good English, a manager in a German company with German clients and German bosses also requires excellent command of German. I would think that this would equally apply to any other country and their native language. Perhaps Germany is a bit unusual in that it fosters a strong small-company culture, with few levels of management. There is no "engineering ladder" in a company with only a single layer of management between engineers and CEO.

blablabla123 2mo ago

> a photo is pretty much required which would be considered illegal in other countries like the UK I work since over 15 years as SWE and have been job hopping most of the time. Only during one job hunt I put a (professional) photo on my CV. While a photo on the CV is obviously not illegal, employers aren't allowed to demand it since 2 decades. But I agree there is a bias. While I'm fully German so to say, I have a foreign last name literally from centuries ago. For most of the time this was never an issue, at best a conversation starter. But companies where the daily language is German (hint: these companies usually suck) I definitely had weird situations before. Also with some recruiters, especially from the UK.