5 ms·

there seems to be very big misunderstanding about what the "ultra" is, so let me explain it basing on the codex source code: it's similar to Claude code ultrac

by Szpadel 2mo ago

there seems to be very big misunderstanding about what the "ultra" is, so let me explain it basing on the codex source code: it's similar to Claude code ultracode. there is no ultra effort level implemented on the backend. it's just alias in the codex to max effort setting and single line addition to prompt to use subagents proactively. that's all as far as we know pro models work differently. for once those are backend implementations and they probably run multiple parallel reasonings for any chunk and use some judgement model to pick best version as persistent one. but that's what I believe is most popular guess, because this is openai secret sauce. there is still no way to use pro models from codex, or at leat so far there is no trace of it anywhere.

Szpadel 2mo ago
sources for easy confirmation: https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b6619400598598876dd0/codex-rs/core/src/session/multi_agents.rs#L53 https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b66... https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b6619400598598876dd0/codex-rs/core/src/client.rs#L172 https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b66... https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b6619400598598876dd0/codex-rs/core/src/context/multi_agent_mode_instructions.rs#L7 https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b66...
- cactusplant7374 2mo ago
  Very strange because in the TerminalBench benchmark Ultra does better than Sol. They didn’t add the reasoning level to the chart.
smcleod 2mo ago
ultracode in Claude Code kicks off a dynamic workflow.
- Implicated 2mo ago
  It's similar in that it also pins you at xhigh effort _combined_ with the workflows (which one might say isn't far off from proactive use of agents)
d4rkp4ttern 2mo ago
> single line addition to prompt to use subagents proactively. This misses an important detail. In Claude Code [1], ultracode suggests the agent create a JavaScript code to deterministically orchestrate sub agents. This is different from just having the main agent launch sub agents and (non-deterministically) manage them. The resulting workflow is called “dynamic” because CC creates this orchestration script dynamically, “on the fly”. [1] https://claude.com/blog/introducing-dynamic-workflows-in-claude-code https://claude.com/blog/introducing-dynamic-workflows-in-cla... Another useful thing about dynamic workflows is you can ask Claude to make them durable as skills (or slash command) that can be invoked later. I believe inside Google they have a similar concept called “deterministic workflows”. I find ultracode extremely useful. Of course you have to watch how your 5 hour and weekly session usage percentages are getting used. So I had Claude make a status-line with 3 progress bars: for context window, 5h session, 7d session: https://pchalasani.github.io/claude-code-tools/tools/statusline/ https://pchalasani.github.io/claude-code-tools/tools/statusl...
- Der_Einzige 2mo ago
  Btw, the /loop “dynamic workflow” is so beyond broken/not working. It’s sad to see folks like Karpathy make a big deal about looping, than to find that the loop command is broken and it’s crap vibe coded documentation isn’t even accurate on the Claude docs. This whole dynamic workflow idea is on face bad. It’s all done as a massive cope for the fact that real determinism (I.e using structured outputs to enforce control flow of tools deterministically) is bad for alignment/safety so they can’t let you have access to those tools anymore…
  - liminal 2mo ago
    Why is structured output a safety issue?
- fny 2mo ago
  Can you explain what you find useful about ultracode? I've become wary of agent swarms since the early days and now just prefer to have a single agent spin for hours at time. Parallelism never got me anywhere worthwhile.
cainxinth 2mo ago
The nomenclature in this industry is all over the place.
cactusplant7374 2mo ago
That's strange. One can easily steer their session to use agents proactively.
- LollipopYakuza 2mo ago
  Many features of the cli tooling of these providers can be achieved by prompting. The way I see it is that they try to normalize and ease the use of practices established by the community.

by Szpadel 2mo ago

Szpadel 2mo ago

sources for easy confirmation: https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b6619400598598876dd0/codex-rs/core/src/session/multi_agents.rs#L53 https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b66... https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b6619400598598876dd0/codex-rs/core/src/client.rs#L172 https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b66... https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b6619400598598876dd0/codex-rs/core/src/context/multi_agent_mode_instructions.rs#L7 https://github.com/openai/codex/blob/98d28aab54ed86714901b66...

cactusplant7374 2mo ago
Very strange because in the TerminalBench benchmark Ultra does better than Sol. They didn’t add the reasoning level to the chart.

smcleod 2mo ago

ultracode in Claude Code kicks off a dynamic workflow.

Implicated 2mo ago
It's similar in that it also pins you at xhigh effort _combined_ with the workflows (which one might say isn't far off from proactive use of agents)

d4rkp4ttern 2mo ago

> single line addition to prompt to use subagents proactively. This misses an important detail. In Claude Code [1], ultracode suggests the agent create a JavaScript code to deterministically orchestrate sub agents. This is different from just having the main agent launch sub agents and (non-deterministically) manage them. The resulting workflow is called “dynamic” because CC creates this orchestration script dynamically, “on the fly”. [1] https://claude.com/blog/introducing-dynamic-workflows-in-claude-code https://claude.com/blog/introducing-dynamic-workflows-in-cla... Another useful thing about dynamic workflows is you can ask Claude to make them durable as skills (or slash command) that can be invoked later. I believe inside Google they have a similar concept called “deterministic workflows”. I find ultracode extremely useful. Of course you have to watch how your 5 hour and weekly session usage percentages are getting used. So I had Claude make a status-line with 3 progress bars: for context window, 5h session, 7d session: https://pchalasani.github.io/claude-code-tools/tools/statusline/ https://pchalasani.github.io/claude-code-tools/tools/statusl...

Der_Einzige 2mo ago
Btw, the /loop “dynamic workflow” is so beyond broken/not working. It’s sad to see folks like Karpathy make a big deal about looping, than to find that the loop command is broken and it’s crap vibe coded documentation isn’t even accurate on the Claude docs. This whole dynamic workflow idea is on face bad. It’s all done as a massive cope for the fact that real determinism (I.e using structured outputs to enforce control flow of tools deterministically) is bad for alignment/safety so they can’t let you have access to those tools anymore…
- liminal 2mo ago
  Why is structured output a safety issue?
fny 2mo ago
Can you explain what you find useful about ultracode? I've become wary of agent swarms since the early days and now just prefer to have a single agent spin for hours at time. Parallelism never got me anywhere worthwhile.

cainxinth 2mo ago

The nomenclature in this industry is all over the place.

cactusplant7374 2mo ago

That's strange. One can easily steer their session to use agents proactively.

LollipopYakuza 2mo ago
Many features of the cli tooling of these providers can be achieved by prompting. The way I see it is that they try to normalize and ease the use of practices established by the community.