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> Alibaba reuses the IP anthropic used to train the model that's more akin to historical Chinese reverse engineering methods and disrespect of IP Why is this a

by messe 3mo ago

> Alibaba reuses the IP anthropic used to train the model that's more akin to historical Chinese reverse engineering methods and disrespect of IP Why is this any worse than Anthropic's disrepect of IP? You've apparently drawn a distinction between the two here, but I'm failing to see what it actually is.

breppp 3mo ago
Copyright law and IP law is not the same although everyone seem to conflate the two. Search engines for example historically ignored copyright law by copying excerpts or serving other site images, it doesn't mean someone copying Google's code has some moral frepass
- messe 3mo ago
  > Copyright law and IP law is not the same although everyone seem to conflate the two. Copyright law is a subset of IP law. What IP is being infringed upon here? > Search engines for example historically ignored copyright law by copying excerpts or serving other site images Excerpts are often considered fair use, but it depends on country. > it doesn't mean someone copying Google's code has some moral frepass Nobody copied Anthropic's code. They used it's output to train another model. At most they violated some terms of service. Did they maybe abuse Anthropic's subsidised pricing? Sure. But that's what happens in a free market if you sell below cost.
  - breppp 3mo ago
    > Excerpts are often considered fair use, but it depends on country. That had happened progressively, thumbnails for example were ruled as fair use later on, DMCA safe harbor was a huge gift for tech companies because otherwise it would curtail the ability to create platforms (relaxing copyright protections in exchange of innovation) > Nobody copied Anthropic's code. They used it's output to train another model. At most they violated some terms of service Distilling a model is a method that can push the entire market to low margins and prevent companies from making money off such research. It also copies the Anthropic special parts (RLHF and other specific methods) rather than the "copy of the entire web" part This is similar to what happened with Chinese reverse engineering of American manufacturing or PC clones killing IBM PCs. Is it in the interest of the USA, probably no, that's why I assume this will be backed by law eventually
    - messe 3mo ago
      > Distilling a model is a method that can push the entire market to low margins and prevent companies from making money off such research Then it's on Anthropic to actually price their models accordingly so that distilling isn't profitable. Why does this need a legal remedy when market forces could easily resolve this? > Is it in the interest of the USA, probably no Good. The world needs to diversify away from dependence on US technology.
      - breppp 3mo ago
        > Good. The world needs to diversify away from dependence on US technology. In my opinion further strengthening the CCP is a disaster for the world. A government that killed millions of its own citizens to stay in power is not who I would entrust super intelligence with. But apparently we are not going to agree on that
        vrganj 3mo ago
        When did the CCP kill millions of its own citizens to stay in power?
        breppp 3mo ago
        The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution are two such examples Generally Communist nations historically favored technological development to human life in the scale of millions, keep that in mind when we enter a new economic revolution
        vrganj 3mo ago
        The Great Leap Forward wasn't "killing" people, which implies intent. It was just good old economic mismanagement. On a related note, around 300k people die in the US every year due to causes directly attributable to poverty. [0] In other words, ~a million every three years. Now what? [0] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10111231/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10111231/
- realusername 3mo ago
  > Search engines for example historically ignored copyright law by copying excerpts or serving other site images, it doesn't mean someone copying Google's code has some moral frepass Not sure that's the best example as they lost that battle and had to pay, eventually it's been codified in law in most countries.

by messe 3mo ago

breppp 3mo ago

Copyright law and IP law is not the same although everyone seem to conflate the two. Search engines for example historically ignored copyright law by copying excerpts or serving other site images, it doesn't mean someone copying Google's code has some moral frepass

messe 3mo ago
> Copyright law and IP law is not the same although everyone seem to conflate the two. Copyright law is a subset of IP law. What IP is being infringed upon here? > Search engines for example historically ignored copyright law by copying excerpts or serving other site images Excerpts are often considered fair use, but it depends on country. > it doesn't mean someone copying Google's code has some moral frepass Nobody copied Anthropic's code. They used it's output to train another model. At most they violated some terms of service. Did they maybe abuse Anthropic's subsidised pricing? Sure. But that's what happens in a free market if you sell below cost.
- breppp 3mo ago
  > Excerpts are often considered fair use, but it depends on country. That had happened progressively, thumbnails for example were ruled as fair use later on, DMCA safe harbor was a huge gift for tech companies because otherwise it would curtail the ability to create platforms (relaxing copyright protections in exchange of innovation) > Nobody copied Anthropic's code. They used it's output to train another model. At most they violated some terms of service Distilling a model is a method that can push the entire market to low margins and prevent companies from making money off such research. It also copies the Anthropic special parts (RLHF and other specific methods) rather than the "copy of the entire web" part This is similar to what happened with Chinese reverse engineering of American manufacturing or PC clones killing IBM PCs. Is it in the interest of the USA, probably no, that's why I assume this will be backed by law eventually
  - messe 3mo ago
    > Distilling a model is a method that can push the entire market to low margins and prevent companies from making money off such research Then it's on Anthropic to actually price their models accordingly so that distilling isn't profitable. Why does this need a legal remedy when market forces could easily resolve this? > Is it in the interest of the USA, probably no Good. The world needs to diversify away from dependence on US technology.
    - breppp 3mo ago
      > Good. The world needs to diversify away from dependence on US technology. In my opinion further strengthening the CCP is a disaster for the world. A government that killed millions of its own citizens to stay in power is not who I would entrust super intelligence with. But apparently we are not going to agree on that
      - vrganj 3mo ago
        When did the CCP kill millions of its own citizens to stay in power?
        breppp 3mo ago
        The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution are two such examples Generally Communist nations historically favored technological development to human life in the scale of millions, keep that in mind when we enter a new economic revolution
        vrganj 3mo ago
        The Great Leap Forward wasn't "killing" people, which implies intent. It was just good old economic mismanagement. On a related note, around 300k people die in the US every year due to causes directly attributable to poverty. [0] In other words, ~a million every three years. Now what? [0] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10111231/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10111231/
realusername 3mo ago
> Search engines for example historically ignored copyright law by copying excerpts or serving other site images, it doesn't mean someone copying Google's code has some moral frepass Not sure that's the best example as they lost that battle and had to pay, eventually it's been codified in law in most countries.