18 ms·

> they know consumers are trapped. Gaming is a luxury good. We can all just walk away.

by dogwalker5000 3mo ago

NegativeLatency 3mo ago
Plenty of PC games, the linux distros that run steam are great too!
- Pxtl 3mo ago
  Just because valve is a benevolent dictator doesn't mean they don't already have the same dictatorship powers that Sony is currently chiseling out for themselves. I wish NFTs had taken off as a system for managing decentralized transferrable digital purchases instead of being another investment scam.
  - brendoelfrendo 3mo ago
    An NFT is superfluous here. If you buy a digital copy, and someone gives you DRM-free files that you can copy and run anywhere you'd like, you have about as much ownership as you can get over a digital good. In this case, an NFT would just serve as an entry in a crypto ledger that you bought the game... which is an alternative to running a digital storefront and tying game purchases to an account, but it doesn't really change the fact that you can only redownload something for so long as it is hosted at the place where you bought it.
    - Pxtl 3mo ago
      I mean the NFT as a means of implementing standardized DRM instead of letting companies roll their own copyright laws.
  - RIMR 3mo ago
    At least with a PC you have control over the system. You're even freer with Valve because now have the ease of using Linux. My entire Steam library is backed up to LTO tapes. I can get most everything running without needing Steam. I will continue to support this business model, because I retain the power to own the system and the data.
    - tremon 3mo ago
      > I can get most everything running without needing Steam. I thought most Steam games relied on remote activation/verification? Can you install and run them on a non-networked machine? If not, your LTO tapes are close to worthless because Valve (or its buyer) can still pull the same trick that Sony did here, with the same effect.
      - saghm 3mo ago
        I'm not positive whether this is what they're referring to, but you can add external games to your Steam library. This is how the Steam Deck is able to run arbitrary games without needing to be in desktop mode, and the most straightforward way to run Windows games via Proton on Linux even if you obtained them elsewhere.
  - saghm 3mo ago
    Proton is open source though (and a lot of the improvements are also upstreamed to Wine, which isn't directly under Valve's control), and you can use it to run third-party games if you want (even ones that are also sold on Steam's storefront). If Valve stopped being benevolent, it would be annoying, but they wouldn't be able to undo most of the improvements we already have.
  - sylens 3mo ago
    Valve has an incentive to keep being benevolent because consumers have the option of using other stores on the same hardware. If you have invested into Sony platforms and games, you're stuck. You either write it off and move now, buying hardware during a component crisis, or you keep investing moving forward. On a PC, I might lose access to games on Steam but my hardware will allow me to buy new games on a different storefront.
  - account42 3mo ago
    NFTs never would have given you any more power than Steam as at the end of the day the platform still controls what you can access or not.
    - Pxtl 3mo ago
      The idea would be that an NFT would provide a platform-agnostic proof-of-ownership to show that you have the right to download the game from a download provider and to satisfy its DRM protection. Basically a replacement for a license key. License keys are not transferable once redeemed, NFTs are. Modern software ownership models allow the software company to write whatever copyright law they choose, controlling length of ownership, terms of use, transferrability, backups, etc.
- prmoustache 3mo ago
  Can you backup steam games and run them without steam?
  - craftkiller 3mo ago
    Many of them, yes. It's up to the individual publisher whether they want to release their game DRM-free on steam. https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_big_list_of_DRM-free_games_on_Steam https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_big_list_of_DRM-free_g... If you want to guarantee that you can backup your PC games and run them without a client, then there is always https://www.gog.com/ https://www.gog.com/
JoeAltmaier 3mo ago
So are cigarettes and liquor. And pot and on and on.
- galleywest200 3mo ago
  The vast majority of goods are luxury goods.
  - kjkjadksj 3mo ago
    Insurance will tell you teeth are as well.
    - mapontosevenths 3mo ago
      Luxury bones.
lenerdenator 3mo ago
The writing has been on the wall for a decade now for gaming being a purely rental-driven, consumer-antagonistic segment of the software market. People have been talking about "walking away" for at least that long. The soles of those walking shoes are as thick and un-worn as they've ever been.
- Loughla 3mo ago
  I'm old enough to remember when people bemoaned the death of physical media, and saw Steam as the death of PC gaming. Like all things, this too shall pass.
  - someonebaggy 3mo ago
    Yes. The new generation will grow up without ever owning any media, and will not be able to conceive of the idea of owning media.
- PaulHoule 3mo ago
  I play Arknights on my iPad but that's the one live service game I have anything to do with.
- dogwalker5000 3mo ago
  If you decide to buy into Sony’s future, make sure you do it with your eyes wide open. Unlike Valve who has never taken away what people have bought without a refund (to my knowledge), Sony doesn’t deserve that benefit of the doubt: https://www.techradar.com/streaming/entertainment/this-should-be-illegal-sony-is-deleting-over-500-movies-that-people-bought-from-their-digital-libraries-just-proving-further-why-4k-blu-rays-popularity-keeps-growing https://www.techradar.com/streaming/entertainment/this-shoul...
  - MindSpunk 3mo ago
    Reminder that Valve's liberal refund policy only exists because they were sued by the Australian government.
bogwog 3mo ago
Walking away from the closed platform you invested hundreds/thousands of dollars into over the years is a luxury (especially if you were mislead into buying a PS5 with a disc drive thinking it'd be supported at least until the end of the product's lifespan) Monopolies, anti-competitive behavior, and anti-consumer behavior in general are all bad bad bad. You have to be a very interesting individual to disagree with that.
- hnlmorg 3mo ago
  > especially if you were mislead into buying a PS5 with a disc drive thinking it'd be supported at least until the end of the product's lifespan 8 years is roughly the lifespan for a games console though. And I say this as someone who hates Sony perhaps more than most, having lived through their the CD rootkit and PS3 OtherOS debacles. And been burned by their substandard yet overpriced audio equipment.
  - xandrius 3mo ago
    Game consoles are not biological beasts which decay as a matter of nature or fact. They are tools, toys, they are devices. I can still play my PS1 as before, I just need to pop in a CD and I'm good to go.
    - hnlmorg 3mo ago
      You’re conflating two completely different things. I’m a retro gamer. I have around 20 systems all hooked up and ready to play from the Atari 2600 through to modern systems like the PS4. In fact I bet I have systems you hadn’t even heard of, and machines that are older than you are. So I know better than most that consoles can live for decades. But that’s not what people mean when they talk about a consoles life. What that term means is the period of time that a console is the current generation (and yes, “generation” is the technical term here and not something I made up). Also decay isn’t a phenomenon exclusive to biology. Plenty of things which aren’t organic can have a life and decay, even though we know they’re not technically a life form. For example stars. But even technology can decay. Capacitors and batteries are the biggest two killers of old technology, and common problems I’ve had to repair in my old hardware. The laser in your PS1 is also a consumable. I’ve had to replace the laser in my PS1 for that very reason. Solder can crack. Any moving parts like motors, fans, and CD/DVD trays can seize up over time too. There’s also sun-bleaching that happens to white and grey casing too, which is thankfully a very easy fix.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
spicymaki 3mo ago
Exactly. Nothing is going to get better until consumers realize they have the power (at least for now).

> they know consumers are trapped. Gaming is a luxury good. We can all just walk away.

NegativeLatency 3mo ago

Plenty of PC games, the linux distros that run steam are great too!

Pxtl 3mo ago
Just because valve is a benevolent dictator doesn't mean they don't already have the same dictatorship powers that Sony is currently chiseling out for themselves. I wish NFTs had taken off as a system for managing decentralized transferrable digital purchases instead of being another investment scam.
- brendoelfrendo 3mo ago
  An NFT is superfluous here. If you buy a digital copy, and someone gives you DRM-free files that you can copy and run anywhere you'd like, you have about as much ownership as you can get over a digital good. In this case, an NFT would just serve as an entry in a crypto ledger that you bought the game... which is an alternative to running a digital storefront and tying game purchases to an account, but it doesn't really change the fact that you can only redownload something for so long as it is hosted at the place where you bought it.
  - Pxtl 3mo ago
    I mean the NFT as a means of implementing standardized DRM instead of letting companies roll their own copyright laws.
- RIMR 3mo ago
  At least with a PC you have control over the system. You're even freer with Valve because now have the ease of using Linux. My entire Steam library is backed up to LTO tapes. I can get most everything running without needing Steam. I will continue to support this business model, because I retain the power to own the system and the data.
  - tremon 3mo ago
    > I can get most everything running without needing Steam. I thought most Steam games relied on remote activation/verification? Can you install and run them on a non-networked machine? If not, your LTO tapes are close to worthless because Valve (or its buyer) can still pull the same trick that Sony did here, with the same effect.
    - saghm 3mo ago
      I'm not positive whether this is what they're referring to, but you can add external games to your Steam library. This is how the Steam Deck is able to run arbitrary games without needing to be in desktop mode, and the most straightforward way to run Windows games via Proton on Linux even if you obtained them elsewhere.
- saghm 3mo ago
  Proton is open source though (and a lot of the improvements are also upstreamed to Wine, which isn't directly under Valve's control), and you can use it to run third-party games if you want (even ones that are also sold on Steam's storefront). If Valve stopped being benevolent, it would be annoying, but they wouldn't be able to undo most of the improvements we already have.
- sylens 3mo ago
  Valve has an incentive to keep being benevolent because consumers have the option of using other stores on the same hardware. If you have invested into Sony platforms and games, you're stuck. You either write it off and move now, buying hardware during a component crisis, or you keep investing moving forward. On a PC, I might lose access to games on Steam but my hardware will allow me to buy new games on a different storefront.
- account42 3mo ago
  NFTs never would have given you any more power than Steam as at the end of the day the platform still controls what you can access or not.
  - Pxtl 3mo ago
    The idea would be that an NFT would provide a platform-agnostic proof-of-ownership to show that you have the right to download the game from a download provider and to satisfy its DRM protection. Basically a replacement for a license key. License keys are not transferable once redeemed, NFTs are. Modern software ownership models allow the software company to write whatever copyright law they choose, controlling length of ownership, terms of use, transferrability, backups, etc.
prmoustache 3mo ago
Can you backup steam games and run them without steam?
- craftkiller 3mo ago
  Many of them, yes. It's up to the individual publisher whether they want to release their game DRM-free on steam. https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_big_list_of_DRM-free_games_on_Steam https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_big_list_of_DRM-free_g... If you want to guarantee that you can backup your PC games and run them without a client, then there is always https://www.gog.com/ https://www.gog.com/

JoeAltmaier 3mo ago

So are cigarettes and liquor. And pot and on and on.

galleywest200 3mo ago
The vast majority of goods are luxury goods.
- kjkjadksj 3mo ago
  Insurance will tell you teeth are as well.
  - mapontosevenths 3mo ago
    Luxury bones.

lenerdenator 3mo ago

The writing has been on the wall for a decade now for gaming being a purely rental-driven, consumer-antagonistic segment of the software market. People have been talking about "walking away" for at least that long. The soles of those walking shoes are as thick and un-worn as they've ever been.

Loughla 3mo ago
I'm old enough to remember when people bemoaned the death of physical media, and saw Steam as the death of PC gaming. Like all things, this too shall pass.
- someonebaggy 3mo ago
  Yes. The new generation will grow up without ever owning any media, and will not be able to conceive of the idea of owning media.
PaulHoule 3mo ago
I play Arknights on my iPad but that's the one live service game I have anything to do with.
dogwalker5000 3mo ago
If you decide to buy into Sony’s future, make sure you do it with your eyes wide open. Unlike Valve who has never taken away what people have bought without a refund (to my knowledge), Sony doesn’t deserve that benefit of the doubt: https://www.techradar.com/streaming/entertainment/this-should-be-illegal-sony-is-deleting-over-500-movies-that-people-bought-from-their-digital-libraries-just-proving-further-why-4k-blu-rays-popularity-keeps-growing https://www.techradar.com/streaming/entertainment/this-shoul...
- MindSpunk 3mo ago
  Reminder that Valve's liberal refund policy only exists because they were sued by the Australian government.

bogwog 3mo ago

Walking away from the closed platform you invested hundreds/thousands of dollars into over the years is a luxury (especially if you were mislead into buying a PS5 with a disc drive thinking it'd be supported at least until the end of the product's lifespan) Monopolies, anti-competitive behavior, and anti-consumer behavior in general are all bad bad bad. You have to be a very interesting individual to disagree with that.

hnlmorg 3mo ago
> especially if you were mislead into buying a PS5 with a disc drive thinking it'd be supported at least until the end of the product's lifespan 8 years is roughly the lifespan for a games console though. And I say this as someone who hates Sony perhaps more than most, having lived through their the CD rootkit and PS3 OtherOS debacles. And been burned by their substandard yet overpriced audio equipment.
- xandrius 3mo ago
  Game consoles are not biological beasts which decay as a matter of nature or fact. They are tools, toys, they are devices. I can still play my PS1 as before, I just need to pop in a CD and I'm good to go.
  - hnlmorg 3mo ago
    You’re conflating two completely different things. I’m a retro gamer. I have around 20 systems all hooked up and ready to play from the Atari 2600 through to modern systems like the PS4. In fact I bet I have systems you hadn’t even heard of, and machines that are older than you are. So I know better than most that consoles can live for decades. But that’s not what people mean when they talk about a consoles life. What that term means is the period of time that a console is the current generation (and yes, “generation” is the technical term here and not something I made up). Also decay isn’t a phenomenon exclusive to biology. Plenty of things which aren’t organic can have a life and decay, even though we know they’re not technically a life form. For example stars. But even technology can decay. Capacitors and batteries are the biggest two killers of old technology, and common problems I’ve had to repair in my old hardware. The laser in your PS1 is also a consumable. I’ve had to replace the laser in my PS1 for that very reason. Solder can crack. Any moving parts like motors, fans, and CD/DVD trays can seize up over time too. There’s also sun-bleaching that happens to white and grey casing too, which is thankfully a very easy fix.

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

spicymaki 3mo ago

Exactly. Nothing is going to get better until consumers realize they have the power (at least for now).