6 ms·

You yourself are on drugs if you think Lance Armstrong "created the situation." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#Doping_histories_of_

by harry8 3mo ago

You yourself are on drugs if you think Lance Armstrong "created the situation." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#Doping_histories_of_Top-10_finishers,_1997%E2%80%932015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#D... Note the quantity that actually got caught and with enough evidence. Lance won it 6 times without getting caught. Looking at it systematically there's no way all of the top finishers were not taking drugs (how else could they compete with the world's best who were? The advantage isn't small.) And it had clearly been going on for many years before Armstrong entered the event for the first time. I really don't care for Armstrong's yellow banded hypocrisy but blaming him for the "cheat or don't bother competing" reality lets rather a lot of people off the hook with a convenient scapegoat. But I'm sure that's all in the past and it's not like that now. Just as was said when Armstrong won 6 times while correctly stating he was the most tested athlete on the planet. Wrapping it up and tying all that to Armstrong, as has been done, stinks. He was clearly a bit player in that extensive fraud. Six titles with no meaningful positive drug test as the most tested athlete on the planet.

harry8 3mo ago
If Armstrong still absolutely makes you want to vomit, that's fine. https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/2503086-Lance-Armstrong-Quote-The-last-thing-I-ll-say-for-the-people-that.jpg https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/2503086-Lan...
watwut 3mo ago
He was literal ring leader and innovator of doping. He was also openly forcing others into doping. That is not controversial statement, but result of subsequent reports. > Lance won it 6 times without getting caught. Yes, he was doping for years before being caught. He found novel ways how to do it. > reality lets rather a lot of people off the hook with a convenient scapegoat. No it does not. It just guves credit to where it is due. But we also have track record of Lance scapegoating others.
- harry8 3mo ago
  Oh do come on. Bernard Thévenet won in 1975 and has said he was using steroids. Armstrong was 4 years old at the time. We don't know about all the drug cheating at the TdF, just what we do know is damning in ways we can't pin on the vile Armstrong. Do continue to loathe him as much as you like. He's earned that. Ulrich, Riis, Fignon, Zoetelmelk, we haven't caught them all nor tried 1% as hard as those who got Armstrong did. Look through the list and try and claim with a straight face that Armstrong was first, led the charge or that the Tour de France actually wanted to catch him or any other winner at all. I don't care at all about Armstrong. The sport is clean now despite an ugly past. Just as it was when Armstrong won all those tours. Can I interest you in this bridge at a good price? Who gets off scot free with the "It was all Armstrong" line. If Armstrong stayed retired he probably would have gotten away with it, kept lying forcefully and be a secular saint by now. The TdF didn't catch him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#Status_of_Tour_de_France_winners_since_1961 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#S...
  - watwut 3mo ago
    I did not said Armstrong was the first cyclist to dope. I said he made a real innovation in the world of doping. There were computers in 1975, but can you agree with me that several people brought in innovations between then and now? It is the same thing. Doping existed prior Armstrong, Armstrong revolutionized it and led worsening of the doping situation. His teammates were bullied by him personally to dope. That includes testimonies of people who left for that reason. > or that the Tour de France actually wanted to catch him or any other winner at all. Yes, plenty of them actually wanted to and Americans were acting butthurt. There were regular accusations of French just being jealous, like it is an international offense to suspect and American sportsman could cheat.
    - harry8 3mo ago
      Oh go on. Look down that list of winners and the list of top finishers for two decades prior to Armstrong and the amount of doping among them that we actually found about and seriously try to make the case that Armstrong is the reason for "cheat or don't bother showing up."

by harry8 3mo ago

harry8 3mo ago

If Armstrong still absolutely makes you want to vomit, that's fine. https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/2503086-Lance-Armstrong-Quote-The-last-thing-I-ll-say-for-the-people-that.jpg https://quotefancy.com/media/wallpaper/3840x2160/2503086-Lan...

watwut 3mo ago

He was literal ring leader and innovator of doping. He was also openly forcing others into doping. That is not controversial statement, but result of subsequent reports. > Lance won it 6 times without getting caught. Yes, he was doping for years before being caught. He found novel ways how to do it. > reality lets rather a lot of people off the hook with a convenient scapegoat. No it does not. It just guves credit to where it is due. But we also have track record of Lance scapegoating others.

harry8 3mo ago
Oh do come on. Bernard Thévenet won in 1975 and has said he was using steroids. Armstrong was 4 years old at the time. We don't know about all the drug cheating at the TdF, just what we do know is damning in ways we can't pin on the vile Armstrong. Do continue to loathe him as much as you like. He's earned that. Ulrich, Riis, Fignon, Zoetelmelk, we haven't caught them all nor tried 1% as hard as those who got Armstrong did. Look through the list and try and claim with a straight face that Armstrong was first, led the charge or that the Tour de France actually wanted to catch him or any other winner at all. I don't care at all about Armstrong. The sport is clean now despite an ugly past. Just as it was when Armstrong won all those tours. Can I interest you in this bridge at a good price? Who gets off scot free with the "It was all Armstrong" line. If Armstrong stayed retired he probably would have gotten away with it, kept lying forcefully and be a secular saint by now. The TdF didn't catch him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#Status_of_Tour_de_France_winners_since_1961 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#S...
- watwut 3mo ago
  I did not said Armstrong was the first cyclist to dope. I said he made a real innovation in the world of doping. There were computers in 1975, but can you agree with me that several people brought in innovations between then and now? It is the same thing. Doping existed prior Armstrong, Armstrong revolutionized it and led worsening of the doping situation. His teammates were bullied by him personally to dope. That includes testimonies of people who left for that reason. > or that the Tour de France actually wanted to catch him or any other winner at all. Yes, plenty of them actually wanted to and Americans were acting butthurt. There were regular accusations of French just being jealous, like it is an international offense to suspect and American sportsman could cheat.
  - harry8 3mo ago
    Oh go on. Look down that list of winners and the list of top finishers for two decades prior to Armstrong and the amount of doping among them that we actually found about and seriously try to make the case that Armstrong is the reason for "cheat or don't bother showing up."