7 ms·

"We are going to call the current situation anything but class warfare." boomers vs millenials, reds vs blues, south vs north, city folks vs country ones

by stein1946 3mo ago

lava_pidgeon 3mo ago
Maybe a political conflicts are more complex than a guy 150 years ago thought.
- jyounker 3mo ago
  I think you're demonstrating the reluctance to admit that class conflict is a real thing. There has been a class war going on for at least four decades in the US, and the lower classes are on the loosing side. All you have to do is look at growing wage gaps in that period. We can come up with all sorts of just-so stories, but the simple answer is that the rich have captured the US government, and it is being governed primarily for their benefit.
  - zdragnar 3mo ago
    If you look at the actual numbers, the trend over the last several decades is a steadily shrinking number of people in poverty in the US. If the only thing you look at are the wage gaps, you're ignoring the very real gains the lower end of the spectrum have made. If the choice were to be poor then or poor now, I'd much rather be poor now.
    - jrflowers 3mo ago
      The number of people in the prison/jail/probation/parole systems in the US has gone up ~16x since the 1970s https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/mass-incarceration-trends/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/mass-incarceration... While the population of the US has gone up by ~1.6x during that same period. Seeing as convictions aren’t spread evenly across income brackets, a poor person’s chances of being in the carceral system outpacing population growth by a factor of ten doesn’t really jibe with the whole “there’s never been a better time to be poor” thing
      - _DeadFred_ 3mo ago
        And contrary to boomers loved in childhood mythos of the wild west where the criminal could get a second chance, become the sheriff, etc. modern America gives no second chances. Huge sections of poorly paid labor would not be staffed if not for people having zero options. Many businesses get the majority of their cheap labor by exploiting ex-cons/people on probation and knowing someone on probation can't say 'no' because a complaint of their attitude from their boss to their PO has actual impacts on their life/freedoms.
    - littlexsparkee 3mo ago
      Since social mobility has flatlined, this has more to do with about the decline in birthrates.
      - zdragnar 3mo ago
        No, the numbers I referred to are percentages. The decline in birthrates doesn't factor in.
        littlexsparkee 3mo ago
        The biggest drops in fertility around 2007 were among teenage moms, hence fewer unwanted children / poverty. How is it immaterial regardless of pct or raw numbers? My point is that there's not a robust mechanism moving people out of working class to middle/upper.
    - microgpt 3mo ago
      What is poverty?
      - zdragnar 3mo ago
        As defined by the Census bureau. https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-poverty/historical-poverty-people.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-p... There's a link below the tables to a PDF that describes the definitions and methods used.
        microgpt 3mo ago
        Where in the PDF? It's very big.
  - lava_pidgeon 3mo ago
    I'm not American but I can tell city - land conflict, geographic conflicts are a very much thing in the whole world. I mean we have more contemporary political research so why not cite these. Oh, also communism, Marx ideas were a catastrophy for Eastern Europe. Greetings from my vacation in Bucharest
zdragnar 3mo ago
None of those things are classes in the sense of the times the notion of class warfare was first pitched, and many of them cross classes. There's plenty of poor/impoverished boomers, blues, reds, city and country folk
- nswango 3mo ago
  I think that's exactly the grandparent's point. Those conflicts are all the pretexts - they believe that it's actually class war and the other labels are all used to avoid calling it by its name.
  - zdragnar 3mo ago
    It isn't class warfare if the two (or more) sides aren't divided by class. What OP meant was the income and wealth gaps are they only things they care about, not the only things that are real.
    - TheOtherHobbes 3mo ago
      No, it's the empirical fact that the US is a plutocratic oligarchy. The oligarchy runs the economy, the government, and the media for its own benefit, and is violently opposed to anything that challenges this. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
      - breppp 3mo ago
        How do you "empirically" prove something of that sort? I for one look at Trump or the previous Tea Party change in the Republican party as anything close to having a static group of elites controlling the country
        bluefirebrand 3mo ago

"We are going to call the current situation anything but class warfare." boomers vs millenials, reds vs blues, south vs north, city folks vs country ones

lava_pidgeon 3mo ago

Maybe a political conflicts are more complex than a guy 150 years ago thought.

jyounker 3mo ago
I think you're demonstrating the reluctance to admit that class conflict is a real thing. There has been a class war going on for at least four decades in the US, and the lower classes are on the loosing side. All you have to do is look at growing wage gaps in that period. We can come up with all sorts of just-so stories, but the simple answer is that the rich have captured the US government, and it is being governed primarily for their benefit.
- zdragnar 3mo ago
  If you look at the actual numbers, the trend over the last several decades is a steadily shrinking number of people in poverty in the US. If the only thing you look at are the wage gaps, you're ignoring the very real gains the lower end of the spectrum have made. If the choice were to be poor then or poor now, I'd much rather be poor now.
  - jrflowers 3mo ago
    The number of people in the prison/jail/probation/parole systems in the US has gone up ~16x since the 1970s https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/mass-incarceration-trends/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/mass-incarceration... While the population of the US has gone up by ~1.6x during that same period. Seeing as convictions aren’t spread evenly across income brackets, a poor person’s chances of being in the carceral system outpacing population growth by a factor of ten doesn’t really jibe with the whole “there’s never been a better time to be poor” thing
    - _DeadFred_ 3mo ago
      And contrary to boomers loved in childhood mythos of the wild west where the criminal could get a second chance, become the sheriff, etc. modern America gives no second chances. Huge sections of poorly paid labor would not be staffed if not for people having zero options. Many businesses get the majority of their cheap labor by exploiting ex-cons/people on probation and knowing someone on probation can't say 'no' because a complaint of their attitude from their boss to their PO has actual impacts on their life/freedoms.
  - littlexsparkee 3mo ago
    Since social mobility has flatlined, this has more to do with about the decline in birthrates.
    - zdragnar 3mo ago
      No, the numbers I referred to are percentages. The decline in birthrates doesn't factor in.
      - littlexsparkee 3mo ago
        The biggest drops in fertility around 2007 were among teenage moms, hence fewer unwanted children / poverty. How is it immaterial regardless of pct or raw numbers? My point is that there's not a robust mechanism moving people out of working class to middle/upper.
  - microgpt 3mo ago
    What is poverty?
    - zdragnar 3mo ago
      As defined by the Census bureau. https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-poverty/historical-poverty-people.html https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-p... There's a link below the tables to a PDF that describes the definitions and methods used.
      - microgpt 3mo ago
        Where in the PDF? It's very big.
- lava_pidgeon 3mo ago
  I'm not American but I can tell city - land conflict, geographic conflicts are a very much thing in the whole world. I mean we have more contemporary political research so why not cite these. Oh, also communism, Marx ideas were a catastrophy for Eastern Europe. Greetings from my vacation in Bucharest

zdragnar 3mo ago

None of those things are classes in the sense of the times the notion of class warfare was first pitched, and many of them cross classes. There's plenty of poor/impoverished boomers, blues, reds, city and country folk

nswango 3mo ago
I think that's exactly the grandparent's point. Those conflicts are all the pretexts - they believe that it's actually class war and the other labels are all used to avoid calling it by its name.
- zdragnar 3mo ago
  It isn't class warfare if the two (or more) sides aren't divided by class. What OP meant was the income and wealth gaps are they only things they care about, not the only things that are real.
  - TheOtherHobbes 3mo ago
    No, it's the empirical fact that the US is a plutocratic oligarchy. The oligarchy runs the economy, the government, and the media for its own benefit, and is violently opposed to anything that challenges this. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
    - breppp 3mo ago
      How do you "empirically" prove something of that sort? I for one look at Trump or the previous Tea Party change in the Republican party as anything close to having a static group of elites controlling the country
      - bluefirebrand 3mo ago