5 ms·

Ukraine targets specialized components to keep Russian refineries shut longer

14 points by vatsel 3mo ago

brokenmachine 3mo ago
"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else, and nobody was going to bomb them." - Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris
- drysine 3mo ago
  Yep, the West should think what will happen if Russia supplies the West's enemies with millions of drones. The "childish delusion" that they could ship drones to the Ukraine unpunished will end one day.
  - Schiendelman 3mo ago
    I was at a wedding in Yerevan last week and got to talk to a lot of Russians. It's clear the country has collapsed already - it's going to act fine on life support for another five years, but it's already hollow. The best knowledge workers left. The birthrate has fallen through the floor. There's no future.
    - RetroTechie 3mo ago
      Never underestimate the Russian people's ability to suffer.
      - Schiendelman 3mo ago
        Oh, I'm not! This is purely a numbers issue. Sources differ (Rosstat is very very questionable), but consensus is that there were 145 million people in Russia in 2022, and this year there are only 143 million. That trend line is devastating and unrecoverable, especially with the rate of decline increasing. There are also now 8+ million Ukrainian refugees. I think that's the main reason they invaded, frankly - to move the mostly ethnically Russian population from eastern Ukraine into Russia. If you didn't count them, they'd be well under 140 million. Russia's trading - they're killing off their prison population and the less talented/connected of their young men, and losing emigrants, and getting Ukrainian refugees. It would have been a good trade for them, if it had actually been a short war. But at this point, it's killed their future.
        drysine 3mo ago
        >Sources differ (Rosstat is very very questionable), but consensus is that there were 145 million people in Russia in 2022, and this year there are only 143 million. So what is that? Sources differ or there is "consensus"? What are these "sources" and how can they possibly know the size of Russian population? >That trend line is devastating and unrecoverable, especially with the rate of decline increasing. So more propaganda promising Russia's collapse/implosion/other_scary_words. There has been a lot of such scaremongering in the last 35 years and today it's just a marker of Western propaganda.
        RetroTechie 3mo ago
        There's census data & trends from pre-war. AIUI there's multiple organisations (besides families) that keep track of people sent to the front, who then went silent (killed, MIA, or even deserted). Dispute numbers all you want. But the overall trend got bad enough that Russia's government even stopped publishing population figures. Would a normal functioning country do that? Worse: a big share is people in their 20s or 30s. Many survivors come back with PTSD or handicapped for life. Smart ones have left the country & are building a new life elsewhere. All the funds poured into the war effort are not put into education, IT sector, infrastructure, building houses, science, etc etc. This is not something any country can recover from quickly. Replenish weapon stocks, sure. But the brain drain, social & economic effects will keep hurting Russia for decades to come.
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        Just a marker? Dude, you live in Russia, right? Have you lived anywhere else to compare?
        drysine 3mo ago
        Again, you haven't answered any questions. What are these "sources" you allude to? How can they possibly know the size of Russian population?
    - drysine 3mo ago
      >got to talk to a lot of Russians. It's clear the country has collapsed already These are all emigrants, they tell each other (and you) these stories to make themselves feel better. >The best knowledge workers left. To Armenia? ))
      - Schiendelman 3mo ago
        I get that you're being cute, but please don't think that last note is what I think! :) Expats are usually right about their home countries - they're the ones with the most data points.
        drysine 3mo ago
        >Expats are usually right about their home countries - they're the ones with the most data points. How so? They don't live in the country and don't have a clue about what life is like there now. They read Western media and "opposition" news sites (living off State Department and EU grants) and those sources validate their decision to leave Russia. There are over million of Ukrainian expats in Russia and the ones I know hate post-2014 Kiev regime with passion. Is that the case where expats are right?
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        You seem... very biased. :)
        drysine 3mo ago
        [flagged]
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        Your question was a strawman, so I didn't see any point in answering it. I get that you're a Russia booster, and that's fine! I just think you're unaware of the rest of the world.
  - brokenmachine 3mo ago
    Unpunished is an odd choice of words. Why shouldn't "the West", actually many separate autonomous countries, be able to sell to whoever they want? Literally nobody is interested in invading Russia. Nobody wants any part of that shitshow. Russia needs to start worrying about their own internal problems, which are both significant and numerous.
    - drysine 3mo ago
      >Why shouldn't "the West", actually many separate autonomous countries, be able to sell to whoever they want? I don't know, why aren't companies from "many separate autonomous countries" able to sell to Russia whatever they want? They would be punished by American and the EU's primary and secondary sanctions for that
      - brokenmachine 3mo ago
        Seems fine to me. The US is representing their interests, just as Russia does. I believe Russia has put sanctions on the US as well. Russia has their good friends like North Korea and Iran to depend on. If they want new friends, maybe they could reconsider their foreign policy.
        drysine 3mo ago
        >Seems fine to me. So punishing countries and companies for trading with Russia is fine, but punishing countries for selling drones to Ukraine is not. Got it.
        cindyllm 3mo ago
        [dead]
        brokenmachine 3mo ago
        You're the one who called it punishing. It's just doing business with who you want. It's just dumb for Russia to do it when they have so few cards to play. Originally I thought you were talking about military "punishing".

14 points by vatsel 3mo ago

"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else, and nobody was going to bomb them." - Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris

drysine 3mo ago
Yep, the West should think what will happen if Russia supplies the West's enemies with millions of drones. The "childish delusion" that they could ship drones to the Ukraine unpunished will end one day.
- Schiendelman 3mo ago
  I was at a wedding in Yerevan last week and got to talk to a lot of Russians. It's clear the country has collapsed already - it's going to act fine on life support for another five years, but it's already hollow. The best knowledge workers left. The birthrate has fallen through the floor. There's no future.
  - RetroTechie 3mo ago
    Never underestimate the Russian people's ability to suffer.
    - Schiendelman 3mo ago
      Oh, I'm not! This is purely a numbers issue. Sources differ (Rosstat is very very questionable), but consensus is that there were 145 million people in Russia in 2022, and this year there are only 143 million. That trend line is devastating and unrecoverable, especially with the rate of decline increasing. There are also now 8+ million Ukrainian refugees. I think that's the main reason they invaded, frankly - to move the mostly ethnically Russian population from eastern Ukraine into Russia. If you didn't count them, they'd be well under 140 million. Russia's trading - they're killing off their prison population and the less talented/connected of their young men, and losing emigrants, and getting Ukrainian refugees. It would have been a good trade for them, if it had actually been a short war. But at this point, it's killed their future.
      - drysine 3mo ago
        >Sources differ (Rosstat is very very questionable), but consensus is that there were 145 million people in Russia in 2022, and this year there are only 143 million. So what is that? Sources differ or there is "consensus"? What are these "sources" and how can they possibly know the size of Russian population? >That trend line is devastating and unrecoverable, especially with the rate of decline increasing. So more propaganda promising Russia's collapse/implosion/other_scary_words. There has been a lot of such scaremongering in the last 35 years and today it's just a marker of Western propaganda.
        RetroTechie 3mo ago
        There's census data & trends from pre-war. AIUI there's multiple organisations (besides families) that keep track of people sent to the front, who then went silent (killed, MIA, or even deserted). Dispute numbers all you want. But the overall trend got bad enough that Russia's government even stopped publishing population figures. Would a normal functioning country do that? Worse: a big share is people in their 20s or 30s. Many survivors come back with PTSD or handicapped for life. Smart ones have left the country & are building a new life elsewhere. All the funds poured into the war effort are not put into education, IT sector, infrastructure, building houses, science, etc etc. This is not something any country can recover from quickly. Replenish weapon stocks, sure. But the brain drain, social & economic effects will keep hurting Russia for decades to come.
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        Just a marker? Dude, you live in Russia, right? Have you lived anywhere else to compare?
        drysine 3mo ago
        Again, you haven't answered any questions. What are these "sources" you allude to? How can they possibly know the size of Russian population?
  - drysine 3mo ago
    >got to talk to a lot of Russians. It's clear the country has collapsed already These are all emigrants, they tell each other (and you) these stories to make themselves feel better. >The best knowledge workers left. To Armenia? ))
    - Schiendelman 3mo ago
      I get that you're being cute, but please don't think that last note is what I think! :) Expats are usually right about their home countries - they're the ones with the most data points.
      - drysine 3mo ago
        >Expats are usually right about their home countries - they're the ones with the most data points. How so? They don't live in the country and don't have a clue about what life is like there now. They read Western media and "opposition" news sites (living off State Department and EU grants) and those sources validate their decision to leave Russia. There are over million of Ukrainian expats in Russia and the ones I know hate post-2014 Kiev regime with passion. Is that the case where expats are right?
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        You seem... very biased. :)
        drysine 3mo ago
        [flagged]
        Schiendelman 3mo ago
        Your question was a strawman, so I didn't see any point in answering it. I get that you're a Russia booster, and that's fine! I just think you're unaware of the rest of the world.
- brokenmachine 3mo ago
  Unpunished is an odd choice of words. Why shouldn't "the West", actually many separate autonomous countries, be able to sell to whoever they want? Literally nobody is interested in invading Russia. Nobody wants any part of that shitshow. Russia needs to start worrying about their own internal problems, which are both significant and numerous.
  - drysine 3mo ago
    >Why shouldn't "the West", actually many separate autonomous countries, be able to sell to whoever they want? I don't know, why aren't companies from "many separate autonomous countries" able to sell to Russia whatever they want? They would be punished by American and the EU's primary and secondary sanctions for that
    - brokenmachine 3mo ago
      Seems fine to me. The US is representing their interests, just as Russia does. I believe Russia has put sanctions on the US as well. Russia has their good friends like North Korea and Iran to depend on. If they want new friends, maybe they could reconsider their foreign policy.
      - drysine 3mo ago
        >Seems fine to me. So punishing countries and companies for trading with Russia is fine, but punishing countries for selling drones to Ukraine is not. Got it.
        cindyllm 3mo ago
        [dead]
        brokenmachine 3mo ago
        You're the one who called it punishing. It's just doing business with who you want. It's just dumb for Russia to do it when they have so few cards to play. Originally I thought you were talking about military "punishing".