8 ms·

How to hack your way into a hot startup with no experience

95 points by michaelrlitt 14y ago

breckenedge 14y ago
Kuddos to the persistence and doing a great job maintaining your tone in your communications.
- amarbirchahal 14y ago
  Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the read.
  - vsloo 14y ago
    Can't imagine how frustrating something like this can be. Have many friends with similar visa issues. Hope you'll enjoy Vidyard.
  - namank 14y ago
    Great job! Hope vidyard is everything you want it to be.
Irregardless 14y ago
It's an interesting story and really shows an unusual level of determination, but I'm stuck on this part: > So, just to recap, that’s about 5 months and 9 interviews/meetings and countless hours spent working on projects/reports/presentations. > by proving himself capable for the role, he hacked the process. I don't see a hack so much as I see a broken process that made a single task monumentally difficult and time consuming. Employers everywhere have a problem with relying on credentials or experience rather than recognizing ability and potential, which is understandable given time and budget constraints. If someone could figure out a way to help companies quickly pick talented but inexperienced individuals out of a pool of applicants, THAT would be a hack. A pretty amazing one for employees and employers, too.
- vsloo 14y ago
  I agree. The previous startup I used to work at had a horrible candidate selection process. Amar's case is too one-off for it to be a hack but at least it was possible.
- redwood 14y ago
  I think it would probably be better to just make "temp to hire" the norm and start lot's of people, keep those who seem to excel. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about cut-throat competition and giant classes feeding into one position. I'm just thinking you can't tell how someone's going to do until they're in, and you should be able to get them in quicker and easier to find out. Finally, a lot of good people can learn quickly. I suppose what I suggest is real hands-on mentorship which is not the norm in American management today...
kami8845 14y ago
Wow, some really big mistakes... Explains why it took 5 months to get the final interview. >but I will put in 12 hours a day, 7 days a week until I get there. >Vidyard being one of them, even if I work for free. >I'm even willing to work for free for a period of time. Never, ever, ever do this stuff - Free If you say you're willing to work for free, that tells me one thing: You think your work is of no value to me. And so if you think that, I will also think that your work is worthless to me. Instant turn-off. - I will work 24/7 You're coming off as desperate if you put it like that. I've similarly been on the job hunt for my first job recently and out of all the phone screens I had, every single one led to an on-site interview (21 on-site interviews in the next 3 weeks). I attribute my success in part to a similar snipped that I would make sure to drop into every interview: "I'm not a 100% subscriber of Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule, but I do believe that in order to become good at something you have to spend a lot of time and focus on it. I want to become the best software developer I can be. I'm not looking for just a 9 to 5, and especially interested in startups because I want to join a great team that I can intensely work with and learn from" That was roughly part of my pitch. I also researched _every_ person who I'd be talking to. Has a lot of PostgreSQL related posts on their blog? "Oh yeah I hate MySQL". Re-tweeted a tweet about a MongoDB bug report? "I prefer traditional databases for serious apps". Has a blog post about Go? "I think the speed advantage that Go can offer is really interesting" And so on and so forth. People like people who are like them, with pretty much everyone exposing their lives and opinions, stuff like this is up for easy pickings. Respect to the guy's persistence. I'm similarly in a position where I can't immigrate to the US (but at least I'm a EU citizen so I can move to London) so I can see why OP really wanted to join a famous startup when there's already so few available to him.
- jakejake 14y ago
  I definitely agree that working for free is a bad idea. But in the software industry we're currently enjoying a shortage of talent (well, that's either positive or negative depending on whether you're employee or employer) I kinda have one foot in the video/film production industry and it is so radically different to see people begging to work for free, having a food service job on the side, etc. While other graduates come out of the same 4-year education with a software degree and they're able to demand high salaries, signing bonuses, stock options, etc.
eliza1wright 14y ago
Wow. I don't know if I should be impressed or pity the guy. Mike says, "Everyone who wants to work in a startup should do this," which I don't agree with. But I think every job-seeker should read this piece and pay attention to 2 key points: 1. Amar leveraged his own internet real estate by publishing blog posts about Vidyard's marketing and then tweeting at the founders to let them know about his work. He essentially provided some flattering, well-written, and useful consulting work to Vidyard. 2. He was honest about his desires, expectations, and willingness to work. When his initial email was written off as just another form letter, he went above and beyond to ensure his real feelings were heard. These tactics are within the reach of every reasonably intelligent person. Good read.
ajross 14y ago
Is this the end of the current startup era? How did we get from "Make stuff people want" to the current obsession with funding, SEO and "Growth Hackers" (!). This sounds like the same sort of nonsense I was reading in January 2000. Just like the 90's tech boom, the community has become inward-looking, stale, and it's feeding on itself (c.f. this article, which isn't about how to start a company but to be hired by a "startup"). The most exiting new stuff seems to be stuff that just feeds more startups. None of this is about the practical details of the article. If that's the job you want then this sounds like a great way to get it. But like I said, if this is the kind of thing that's interesting to "startups", then I think the end is near.
- moocow01 14y ago
  I'd agree that while I really dont have a full picture of the economics of the current startup atmosphere (does anyone?), the culture right now is a pretty strong indicator to me that things are going to stagnate or trend down. IMHO there is a pretty toxic layer of culture that has built up from all the hype that for the most part is adding negative value. I dont really give a crap if people think it fits their definition of a "bubble" or not - if the focus is not on providing tangible value to others, the market will eventually figure it out and value it appropriately. I think there is a large and growing segment of startups that view their business as existing to just bring value to themselves (although will obviously never be admitted) - business plans that stop at getting funding, comfy office suites, parties, etc. Part of this is getting driven by a segment of newly inspired newcomers that view startups as essentially just a cool atmosphere where they could get rich rather than what startups really should be to be successful ... a slog through utter absolute shit to try to do something that really matters to the people involved.
  - brackin 14y ago
    I agree with many of the points being made but I don't believe that we're actually in a bubble. Speaking to serial founders and investors it's actually a much tougher time to raise money right now than six months ago. There was no pop, just a decrease in the market. In fact overall venture capital investments didn't rise significantly over the supposed 2010 - 2011 bubble. It also costs less today so it's tough to compare with the millions being raised by most startups in 1999. Which leads one to believe that many are talking but few are executing on this talk. If you actually want to build something valuable for the long term. Now is the perfect time to start a company. If you want to raise a seed round and sell fast then you're probably too late or will be shortly.
ia 14y ago
"hot startup" is empty and salesy, IMO. after reading this, i kind of wish i hadn't. none of the parties mentioned came off in a positive way.
brianbreslin 14y ago
You know its funny, most of the talented engineers here in Miami are working at big corps and could care less about the startup echo-chamber and jobs at these startups. Could be that our startups here don't get enough press to seem cool?
- achompas 14y ago
  Well, look at the article. It's written by a young guy who essentially consulted for this company for free for 5 months. I'd argue South Florida has it right: startups are absurdly glamorized right now, and in a region where everyone (everyone!) hustles to get by, the engineers know fronting when they see it. Why do engineers go to startups? Cool technology, interesting problems, more autonomy, and the slim chance of a big payoff. Startups in South Florida apparently have none of these. I've told Mike Greenberg (and you too, I think?) as much about the tech meetup culture down there: you won't have strong technology culture without strong technology. RefreshMiami and a Rails meetup won't cut it. Besides, why quit your corporate engineering job for a startup when you're making $80k+ in a city where money is everything?
redwood 14y ago
Amazing how much free consulting work companies are getting through job interviews these days... It almost makes you think a lot of companies now have an incentive to pretend to be hiring just to get this input. By the way, if anyone's interested, I posted a cpl days ago to no avail the following breakdown of job openings results in select cities by select keywords via Indeed.com's API (I'm new to python and having some fun): http://i.imgur.com/hGlSb.png http://i.imgur.com/hGlSb.png
- joonix 14y ago
  The article makes Vidyard and particularly "Mike" look pretty bad and lacks perspective and empathy. The fact that he's OK with ignoring personal communications just because they look like a "cover letter" speaks volumes. I don't buy the "I'm busy" argument. I've emailed people like Mark Cuban and received prompt replies in the past. Worse, he interviewed the guy and made him do free, unpaid work to further prove himself, and then ignored him for four weeks after he did the task! Absolutely pathetic. I can only think about my friend's startup cleaning company: he has prospective cleaners clean an apartment as part of their interview to see their cleaning skills, but he pays them the standard hourly rate ($20/hr+) for their time. And he follows up. And he doesn't have any funding himself yet. Posts like this one just reinforce and validate this kind of behavior in the startup community. Just because you're a "busy startup guy" doesn't mean you get to ignore labor laws and have free reign to be a prick. Just FYI, having people work for free is almost always illegal if they're not receiving academic credit. All people deserve to be treated with common decency. It doesn't matter how bad the economy is, how new the employer is, and how inexperienced the applicant is. As soon as we deem it acceptable and in fact encourage the abandonment of these principles and laws, we descend into a third world black market business culture. I wouldn't be surprised if the next boulder we crash into on this slippery slope involves applicants bribing their way into jobs: "In exchange for letting me work for you for free, I'm willing to "fund the overhead" of my training by providing you with a monthly stipend of $500/month during my free labor period!"
  - michaelrlitt 14y ago
    You're right - I did lack perspective and empathy. I never thought I'd be the busy guy without time or energy to filter through and respond to every application we get. The problem that I've encountered is that at < 15 employees, the best hires are generally people we pursue. Literally 90% of people we've spoken to who apply through standard means are ill-fitted for the role. This post is designed to open the perspective of myself, the "busy startup guy" as well as Amar, the "I want to be a part of a startup guy". The idea is that everyone should go above and beyond to get noticed. Most people don't. If you don't really really really think you can make an impact in my business (and haven't shown me so via initiative) how can I really know that you're not just another tire-kicker? Remember, a seed-stage startup is on an egg-timer. Every minute needs to be productive and every conversation needs to create value. We need to pick and choose our battles wisely.
theshadow 14y ago
While this had a happy ending, can you imagine an alternate universe where the founders for whatever reason decided not to hire the guy? Leading him on for several months, making him jump through hoops and then not hiring him would have been a huge waste of time and energy, esp considering they seem pretty disinterested through most of the process. People sometimes greatly undervalue the value of a polite 'no'.
- matthewowen 14y ago
  I think you mean 'uninterested'. Pet peeve, sorry. But I wholly agree with the substance. This article feels like a justification for an unnecessarily long process that was a poor use of everybody's time. It reflects badly on a person if they're sufficiently desperate to expend so much time on the whims of a particular company, and it reflects badly on a company that would expect and encourage it. To be clear - if you don't get a response, reaching out again to follow up is a really good thing. Being persistent is a good thing. But I think you really need to have a stronger sense of your own value than Amar displayed. When a company is that cool on you, it's probably better to move on. But the bigger problem, really, is just that it all seems so inefficient. With all due respect, Amar sold himself really badly in the emails shown. That puts you on the back foot from the outset, and it bodes especially badly for a marketing oriented role.
Swizec 14y ago
"Launch something" That's all you need to get a startup to pay for your time. Honest. Every time I launch something, emails start pouring in from people who are interested. Forget everything else anyone says, just launch something.
- mcantelon 14y ago
  Exactly. You don't need anyone's permission to make something. If you hire someone who's launched something you know you won't have to do a lot of handholding, versus someone who's going to "work for free".
- mikle 14y ago
  I don't think you can make such a broad claim. I've been working at startups for a few years and I don't lack job offers, but they come mostly from my past experience and industry ties. I've "launched" (as in created) two small web apps in the last 6 months and even though one has a few hundred users I still only got a 15$ donation and some interesting conversations, but no job offers. Not to mention I have tens of github repos and even though the link is on my CV I was never asked anything about any of them in my last job search. I live in Tel-Aviv, a city only second to SV in startup mania, yet I still feel very alien reading a lot HN articles and comments. Edit: Thought I should add: in the Israeli startup scene ties, not launching are your best bet at getting a good job.
  - oz 14y ago
    "in the Israeli startup scene ties, not launching are your best bet at getting a good job." Could you explain why?
    - mikle 14y ago
      I'll try. First I want to make sure that this is from my personal, but vast experience. I'm not saying it is the only way to get a good job, but it is the best bet. I think the most important reason is that Israel is a small and a tight knit country, and so is the startup scene. It helps that the huge majority of talented developers served at very specific army units (the most famous is 8200). This leads to a simple truth - when I interview someone he was probably referred to me through friends or at least I know someone who worked/served with him. When I read the article I found it funny that Amar was OK with working for free for a few months. Me and almost everyone I know served at least 3 years in the IDF which is pretty much working for free.
mikle 14y ago
I have read almost to the end and I still have no idea what a "growth hacker" does. Is this SEO (another blurry, but less blurry term) or content generation or scaling?
kamakazizuru 14y ago
this is depressing. cheers to the guy for his persistence and interest - but seriously - why would you still want to work for a company after being literally treated like crap like that? also - what bargaining value do you have at all w.r.t. salaries or equity if you go in seeming like the most desperate person alive? It should be the other way around - if you´re good and talented - which the author of the article obviously is - then companies should court you to be come a part of their business. Case in point - the 42floors guys - who were awesome enough to really try to woo Dan Shipper publicly - http://42floors.com/blog/consider-this-a-job-offer-to-work-at-42floors http://42floors.com/blog/consider-this-a-job-offer-to-work-a... - at the end of the day - you want to be valuable to a company - and you want them to want you - telling them that they can use you isnt that.
aba_sababa 14y ago
Does anyone actually read and care about this inane bullshit?
aclimatt 14y ago
All right, most of these comments seem to be about how he went the completely wrong direction looking to get hired and how each of us would have done it completely differently. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Would he have done better if he had just "launched something himself"? Perhaps. How about being a fantastic coder and orator too? Certainly. That's not the point. He had persistence. When it comes to running a company and trying to be successful, there are few traits more valuable than persistence -- and he has more of it than the majority of extremely smart people I know. I know a lot of absolutely fantastic coders. Many of them are very creative too. But the lack of persistence and drive is what will prevent them from dealing with the emotional rollercoaster and disappointment that is running a company. Somebody with persistence and intelligence can learn any skill. And most importantly, they can keep performing their skills when everybody else -- even those 50 times better at it than they -- have quit. EDIT: And I should have included: Amar, hats off to you. You're going to go far.
anotherbadlogin 14y ago
Step 1: Stop misusing the word "hacking". It's lame.
hakaaak 14y ago
Very few will be this tenacious, so if you have a startup, don't get your hopes up unless the pool of workers is really desperate.
CosmicShadow 14y ago
Wow, can't believe all the negative talk, perhaps I read it in a different tone, but the story delivers what the headline says, unless you want to be really critical on the word hack. If you are persistent and prove yourself, you can go anywhere. It didn't sound to me like they treated him like crap, yeah sure they told him No, they brushed him off, and they did what any other person running a start up or even what any other HR person would do. If a guy continues to practically stalk you, you either ignore him or are forced to deal with him, and when you are 'awkwarded' into a situation or you see someone trying hard, what are you gonna do, tell him to fuck off or throw him a bone? Dude kept coming back and incrementally proving himself, asking for what he could do, and what do you say? "Sorry you'll never be good enough?", you don't know that, you just know he is currently right for that role, but he still might be able to prove he's a valuable person to hire. The stories of 7-year over night successes are because of persistence, dude had that and those are the people you want along with you on the ride.
- Samuel_Michon 14y ago
  "yeah sure they told him No" Where in the article did you find that information? I think the problem is that they never did tell him 'no', stringing him along while they had absolutely no intention in hiring him. IMO, Amar should've moved on to a company that would appreciate him. The Vidyard guys seem like major assholes.
  - CosmicShadow 14y ago
    My bad, maybe they didn't specifically say No, but if you apply for a job and don't get a response, I'm pretty sure that is universally recognized as a No in the job seeking world, and I think it's clear from the article that he realized that, he just didn't care because he really wanted a job with them. "However, I was too frustrated after being turned down everywhere else (for one reason or another) and realized that on paper, I didn’t look too great (Bachelors Degree in Science and a bunch of failed business ideas)." Guy recognizes that he doesn't look good enough which is why he is getting No's or no responses, but he believes that he is good enough so he decides to get creative to prove it. If you are trying hard and they aren't responding, I think you know it's because you aren't making the cut, Vidyard was sending subtle, but very well understood signals that anyone else might do, you try, no response, obviously no clicking with them, so you keep trying, because you still think you can prove something. It sounds like people want to say either Amar is stupid or Vidyard are dicks, both had their own agenda and clearly sent each other messages about how they felt without necessarily directly saying it. How many "No's" does it take to get to a Yes in sales? Dude is a good salesman.
Derpsec 14y ago
this article was terribad internet 2.0 stuffed shirt middle management corporate hot garbage. i wiped my ass with everything that ceo had to say. join our moustache hipster 'hot startup', it'll take you 9 interviews but we're worth it. really? it's 2012 how about f you and your viral marketing video cloud service startup. you are parasites upon humanity making video spam and viewing metrics stats for car companies, penis pills and gambling. just admit you are shameless hucksters that are one peg above a spammer, ditch the synergies and ridiculous pretense. if this guy enjoys the starbucks latte macfag synergies promoting corporate work environment that's great but this isn't 'hacking' this is pleading and begging to get a shitty job in yet another corporation that's just pretending to be super kawaii cool and awesome but when it comes down to it they'll lay this guy off in a heartbeat, sell the company to some megacorp and screw every employee royally. all startups do this. the guy who owns it buys back all your shares before he lays you off as a favour then keeps the money and sells out faster than Jay Leno in front of a bowl full of Doritos. I bet they do excrement inducing "team building exercizes" at this way super coo startup. No matter what hipster clothes and mac products you put in front of the CEO he's Bill Lumberg from Office Space demanding TPS reports. Finally the worst of this entire article was the buzzword 'growth hacker' which is newspeak for a spammer. Look at the definition article they link, some guy who basically manipulates CL ads to punt his junk, a marketer with coding experience, in other words, a fcking spammer. Protip: all of India and Pakistan are chock full of marketers who can code. This is not a revolutionary concept. I would've shown up and given this guy a USB drive with 3 OSx exploits on it to corrupt client side memory and my "resume", then sold myself to him in person using balls not limp social media or stalking around linkedin and twitter. If they didn't hire me I'd have their source code to sell on blackhat SEO forums anyways so who cares.
johnnymonster 14y ago
It very funny to see Vidyard erasing ALL comments on their post that are negative, constructive or not LOL...

95 points by michaelrlitt 14y ago

breckenedge 14y ago

Kuddos to the persistence and doing a great job maintaining your tone in your communications.

amarbirchahal 14y ago
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the read.
- vsloo 14y ago
  Can't imagine how frustrating something like this can be. Have many friends with similar visa issues. Hope you'll enjoy Vidyard.
- namank 14y ago
  Great job! Hope vidyard is everything you want it to be.

Irregardless 14y ago

It's an interesting story and really shows an unusual level of determination, but I'm stuck on this part: > So, just to recap, that’s about 5 months and 9 interviews/meetings and countless hours spent working on projects/reports/presentations. > by proving himself capable for the role, he hacked the process. I don't see a hack so much as I see a broken process that made a single task monumentally difficult and time consuming. Employers everywhere have a problem with relying on credentials or experience rather than recognizing ability and potential, which is understandable given time and budget constraints. If someone could figure out a way to help companies quickly pick talented but inexperienced individuals out of a pool of applicants, THAT would be a hack. A pretty amazing one for employees and employers, too.

vsloo 14y ago
I agree. The previous startup I used to work at had a horrible candidate selection process. Amar's case is too one-off for it to be a hack but at least it was possible.
redwood 14y ago
I think it would probably be better to just make "temp to hire" the norm and start lot's of people, keep those who seem to excel. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about cut-throat competition and giant classes feeding into one position. I'm just thinking you can't tell how someone's going to do until they're in, and you should be able to get them in quicker and easier to find out. Finally, a lot of good people can learn quickly. I suppose what I suggest is real hands-on mentorship which is not the norm in American management today...

kami8845 14y ago

Wow, some really big mistakes... Explains why it took 5 months to get the final interview. >but I will put in 12 hours a day, 7 days a week until I get there. >Vidyard being one of them, even if I work for free. >I'm even willing to work for free for a period of time. Never, ever, ever do this stuff - Free If you say you're willing to work for free, that tells me one thing: You think your work is of no value to me. And so if you think that, I will also think that your work is worthless to me. Instant turn-off. - I will work 24/7 You're coming off as desperate if you put it like that. I've similarly been on the job hunt for my first job recently and out of all the phone screens I had, every single one led to an on-site interview (21 on-site interviews in the next 3 weeks). I attribute my success in part to a similar snipped that I would make sure to drop into every interview: "I'm not a 100% subscriber of Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule, but I do believe that in order to become good at something you have to spend a lot of time and focus on it. I want to become the best software developer I can be. I'm not looking for just a 9 to 5, and especially interested in startups because I want to join a great team that I can intensely work with and learn from" That was roughly part of my pitch. I also researched _every_ person who I'd be talking to. Has a lot of PostgreSQL related posts on their blog? "Oh yeah I hate MySQL". Re-tweeted a tweet about a MongoDB bug report? "I prefer traditional databases for serious apps". Has a blog post about Go? "I think the speed advantage that Go can offer is really interesting" And so on and so forth. People like people who are like them, with pretty much everyone exposing their lives and opinions, stuff like this is up for easy pickings. Respect to the guy's persistence. I'm similarly in a position where I can't immigrate to the US (but at least I'm a EU citizen so I can move to London) so I can see why OP really wanted to join a famous startup when there's already so few available to him.

jakejake 14y ago
I definitely agree that working for free is a bad idea. But in the software industry we're currently enjoying a shortage of talent (well, that's either positive or negative depending on whether you're employee or employer) I kinda have one foot in the video/film production industry and it is so radically different to see people begging to work for free, having a food service job on the side, etc. While other graduates come out of the same 4-year education with a software degree and they're able to demand high salaries, signing bonuses, stock options, etc.

eliza1wright 14y ago

Wow. I don't know if I should be impressed or pity the guy. Mike says, "Everyone who wants to work in a startup should do this," which I don't agree with. But I think every job-seeker should read this piece and pay attention to 2 key points: 1. Amar leveraged his own internet real estate by publishing blog posts about Vidyard's marketing and then tweeting at the founders to let them know about his work. He essentially provided some flattering, well-written, and useful consulting work to Vidyard. 2. He was honest about his desires, expectations, and willingness to work. When his initial email was written off as just another form letter, he went above and beyond to ensure his real feelings were heard. These tactics are within the reach of every reasonably intelligent person. Good read.

ajross 14y ago

Is this the end of the current startup era? How did we get from "Make stuff people want" to the current obsession with funding, SEO and "Growth Hackers" (!). This sounds like the same sort of nonsense I was reading in January 2000. Just like the 90's tech boom, the community has become inward-looking, stale, and it's feeding on itself (c.f. this article, which isn't about how to start a company but to be hired by a "startup"). The most exiting new stuff seems to be stuff that just feeds more startups. None of this is about the practical details of the article. If that's the job you want then this sounds like a great way to get it. But like I said, if this is the kind of thing that's interesting to "startups", then I think the end is near.

moocow01 14y ago
I'd agree that while I really dont have a full picture of the economics of the current startup atmosphere (does anyone?), the culture right now is a pretty strong indicator to me that things are going to stagnate or trend down. IMHO there is a pretty toxic layer of culture that has built up from all the hype that for the most part is adding negative value. I dont really give a crap if people think it fits their definition of a "bubble" or not - if the focus is not on providing tangible value to others, the market will eventually figure it out and value it appropriately. I think there is a large and growing segment of startups that view their business as existing to just bring value to themselves (although will obviously never be admitted) - business plans that stop at getting funding, comfy office suites, parties, etc. Part of this is getting driven by a segment of newly inspired newcomers that view startups as essentially just a cool atmosphere where they could get rich rather than what startups really should be to be successful ... a slog through utter absolute shit to try to do something that really matters to the people involved.
- brackin 14y ago
  I agree with many of the points being made but I don't believe that we're actually in a bubble. Speaking to serial founders and investors it's actually a much tougher time to raise money right now than six months ago. There was no pop, just a decrease in the market. In fact overall venture capital investments didn't rise significantly over the supposed 2010 - 2011 bubble. It also costs less today so it's tough to compare with the millions being raised by most startups in 1999. Which leads one to believe that many are talking but few are executing on this talk. If you actually want to build something valuable for the long term. Now is the perfect time to start a company. If you want to raise a seed round and sell fast then you're probably too late or will be shortly.

ia 14y ago

"hot startup" is empty and salesy, IMO. after reading this, i kind of wish i hadn't. none of the parties mentioned came off in a positive way.

brianbreslin 14y ago

You know its funny, most of the talented engineers here in Miami are working at big corps and could care less about the startup echo-chamber and jobs at these startups. Could be that our startups here don't get enough press to seem cool?

achompas 14y ago
Well, look at the article. It's written by a young guy who essentially consulted for this company for free for 5 months. I'd argue South Florida has it right: startups are absurdly glamorized right now, and in a region where everyone (everyone!) hustles to get by, the engineers know fronting when they see it. Why do engineers go to startups? Cool technology, interesting problems, more autonomy, and the slim chance of a big payoff. Startups in South Florida apparently have none of these. I've told Mike Greenberg (and you too, I think?) as much about the tech meetup culture down there: you won't have strong technology culture without strong technology. RefreshMiami and a Rails meetup won't cut it. Besides, why quit your corporate engineering job for a startup when you're making $80k+ in a city where money is everything?

redwood 14y ago

Amazing how much free consulting work companies are getting through job interviews these days... It almost makes you think a lot of companies now have an incentive to pretend to be hiring just to get this input. By the way, if anyone's interested, I posted a cpl days ago to no avail the following breakdown of job openings results in select cities by select keywords via Indeed.com's API (I'm new to python and having some fun): http://i.imgur.com/hGlSb.png http://i.imgur.com/hGlSb.png

joonix 14y ago
The article makes Vidyard and particularly "Mike" look pretty bad and lacks perspective and empathy. The fact that he's OK with ignoring personal communications just because they look like a "cover letter" speaks volumes. I don't buy the "I'm busy" argument. I've emailed people like Mark Cuban and received prompt replies in the past. Worse, he interviewed the guy and made him do free, unpaid work to further prove himself, and then ignored him for four weeks after he did the task! Absolutely pathetic. I can only think about my friend's startup cleaning company: he has prospective cleaners clean an apartment as part of their interview to see their cleaning skills, but he pays them the standard hourly rate ($20/hr+) for their time. And he follows up. And he doesn't have any funding himself yet. Posts like this one just reinforce and validate this kind of behavior in the startup community. Just because you're a "busy startup guy" doesn't mean you get to ignore labor laws and have free reign to be a prick. Just FYI, having people work for free is almost always illegal if they're not receiving academic credit. All people deserve to be treated with common decency. It doesn't matter how bad the economy is, how new the employer is, and how inexperienced the applicant is. As soon as we deem it acceptable and in fact encourage the abandonment of these principles and laws, we descend into a third world black market business culture. I wouldn't be surprised if the next boulder we crash into on this slippery slope involves applicants bribing their way into jobs: "In exchange for letting me work for you for free, I'm willing to "fund the overhead" of my training by providing you with a monthly stipend of $500/month during my free labor period!"
- michaelrlitt 14y ago
  You're right - I did lack perspective and empathy. I never thought I'd be the busy guy without time or energy to filter through and respond to every application we get. The problem that I've encountered is that at < 15 employees, the best hires are generally people we pursue. Literally 90% of people we've spoken to who apply through standard means are ill-fitted for the role. This post is designed to open the perspective of myself, the "busy startup guy" as well as Amar, the "I want to be a part of a startup guy". The idea is that everyone should go above and beyond to get noticed. Most people don't. If you don't really really really think you can make an impact in my business (and haven't shown me so via initiative) how can I really know that you're not just another tire-kicker? Remember, a seed-stage startup is on an egg-timer. Every minute needs to be productive and every conversation needs to create value. We need to pick and choose our battles wisely.

theshadow 14y ago

While this had a happy ending, can you imagine an alternate universe where the founders for whatever reason decided not to hire the guy? Leading him on for several months, making him jump through hoops and then not hiring him would have been a huge waste of time and energy, esp considering they seem pretty disinterested through most of the process. People sometimes greatly undervalue the value of a polite 'no'.

matthewowen 14y ago
I think you mean 'uninterested'. Pet peeve, sorry. But I wholly agree with the substance. This article feels like a justification for an unnecessarily long process that was a poor use of everybody's time. It reflects badly on a person if they're sufficiently desperate to expend so much time on the whims of a particular company, and it reflects badly on a company that would expect and encourage it. To be clear - if you don't get a response, reaching out again to follow up is a really good thing. Being persistent is a good thing. But I think you really need to have a stronger sense of your own value than Amar displayed. When a company is that cool on you, it's probably better to move on. But the bigger problem, really, is just that it all seems so inefficient. With all due respect, Amar sold himself really badly in the emails shown. That puts you on the back foot from the outset, and it bodes especially badly for a marketing oriented role.

Swizec 14y ago

"Launch something" That's all you need to get a startup to pay for your time. Honest. Every time I launch something, emails start pouring in from people who are interested. Forget everything else anyone says, just launch something.

mcantelon 14y ago
Exactly. You don't need anyone's permission to make something. If you hire someone who's launched something you know you won't have to do a lot of handholding, versus someone who's going to "work for free".
mikle 14y ago
I don't think you can make such a broad claim. I've been working at startups for a few years and I don't lack job offers, but they come mostly from my past experience and industry ties. I've "launched" (as in created) two small web apps in the last 6 months and even though one has a few hundred users I still only got a 15$ donation and some interesting conversations, but no job offers. Not to mention I have tens of github repos and even though the link is on my CV I was never asked anything about any of them in my last job search. I live in Tel-Aviv, a city only second to SV in startup mania, yet I still feel very alien reading a lot HN articles and comments. Edit: Thought I should add: in the Israeli startup scene ties, not launching are your best bet at getting a good job.
- oz 14y ago
  "in the Israeli startup scene ties, not launching are your best bet at getting a good job." Could you explain why?
  - mikle 14y ago
    I'll try. First I want to make sure that this is from my personal, but vast experience. I'm not saying it is the only way to get a good job, but it is the best bet. I think the most important reason is that Israel is a small and a tight knit country, and so is the startup scene. It helps that the huge majority of talented developers served at very specific army units (the most famous is 8200). This leads to a simple truth - when I interview someone he was probably referred to me through friends or at least I know someone who worked/served with him. When I read the article I found it funny that Amar was OK with working for free for a few months. Me and almost everyone I know served at least 3 years in the IDF which is pretty much working for free.

mikle 14y ago

I have read almost to the end and I still have no idea what a "growth hacker" does. Is this SEO (another blurry, but less blurry term) or content generation or scaling?

kamakazizuru 14y ago

this is depressing. cheers to the guy for his persistence and interest - but seriously - why would you still want to work for a company after being literally treated like crap like that? also - what bargaining value do you have at all w.r.t. salaries or equity if you go in seeming like the most desperate person alive? It should be the other way around - if you´re good and talented - which the author of the article obviously is - then companies should court you to be come a part of their business. Case in point - the 42floors guys - who were awesome enough to really try to woo Dan Shipper publicly - http://42floors.com/blog/consider-this-a-job-offer-to-work-at-42floors http://42floors.com/blog/consider-this-a-job-offer-to-work-a... - at the end of the day - you want to be valuable to a company - and you want them to want you - telling them that they can use you isnt that.

aba_sababa 14y ago

Does anyone actually read and care about this inane bullshit?

aclimatt 14y ago

All right, most of these comments seem to be about how he went the completely wrong direction looking to get hired and how each of us would have done it completely differently. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Would he have done better if he had just "launched something himself"? Perhaps. How about being a fantastic coder and orator too? Certainly. That's not the point. He had persistence. When it comes to running a company and trying to be successful, there are few traits more valuable than persistence -- and he has more of it than the majority of extremely smart people I know. I know a lot of absolutely fantastic coders. Many of them are very creative too. But the lack of persistence and drive is what will prevent them from dealing with the emotional rollercoaster and disappointment that is running a company. Somebody with persistence and intelligence can learn any skill. And most importantly, they can keep performing their skills when everybody else -- even those 50 times better at it than they -- have quit. EDIT: And I should have included: Amar, hats off to you. You're going to go far.

anotherbadlogin 14y ago

Step 1: Stop misusing the word "hacking". It's lame.

hakaaak 14y ago

Very few will be this tenacious, so if you have a startup, don't get your hopes up unless the pool of workers is really desperate.

CosmicShadow 14y ago

Wow, can't believe all the negative talk, perhaps I read it in a different tone, but the story delivers what the headline says, unless you want to be really critical on the word hack. If you are persistent and prove yourself, you can go anywhere. It didn't sound to me like they treated him like crap, yeah sure they told him No, they brushed him off, and they did what any other person running a start up or even what any other HR person would do. If a guy continues to practically stalk you, you either ignore him or are forced to deal with him, and when you are 'awkwarded' into a situation or you see someone trying hard, what are you gonna do, tell him to fuck off or throw him a bone? Dude kept coming back and incrementally proving himself, asking for what he could do, and what do you say? "Sorry you'll never be good enough?", you don't know that, you just know he is currently right for that role, but he still might be able to prove he's a valuable person to hire. The stories of 7-year over night successes are because of persistence, dude had that and those are the people you want along with you on the ride.

Samuel_Michon 14y ago
"yeah sure they told him No" Where in the article did you find that information? I think the problem is that they never did tell him 'no', stringing him along while they had absolutely no intention in hiring him. IMO, Amar should've moved on to a company that would appreciate him. The Vidyard guys seem like major assholes.
- CosmicShadow 14y ago
  My bad, maybe they didn't specifically say No, but if you apply for a job and don't get a response, I'm pretty sure that is universally recognized as a No in the job seeking world, and I think it's clear from the article that he realized that, he just didn't care because he really wanted a job with them. "However, I was too frustrated after being turned down everywhere else (for one reason or another) and realized that on paper, I didn’t look too great (Bachelors Degree in Science and a bunch of failed business ideas)." Guy recognizes that he doesn't look good enough which is why he is getting No's or no responses, but he believes that he is good enough so he decides to get creative to prove it. If you are trying hard and they aren't responding, I think you know it's because you aren't making the cut, Vidyard was sending subtle, but very well understood signals that anyone else might do, you try, no response, obviously no clicking with them, so you keep trying, because you still think you can prove something. It sounds like people want to say either Amar is stupid or Vidyard are dicks, both had their own agenda and clearly sent each other messages about how they felt without necessarily directly saying it. How many "No's" does it take to get to a Yes in sales? Dude is a good salesman.

Derpsec 14y ago

this article was terribad internet 2.0 stuffed shirt middle management corporate hot garbage. i wiped my ass with everything that ceo had to say. join our moustache hipster 'hot startup', it'll take you 9 interviews but we're worth it. really? it's 2012 how about f you and your viral marketing video cloud service startup. you are parasites upon humanity making video spam and viewing metrics stats for car companies, penis pills and gambling. just admit you are shameless hucksters that are one peg above a spammer, ditch the synergies and ridiculous pretense. if this guy enjoys the starbucks latte macfag synergies promoting corporate work environment that's great but this isn't 'hacking' this is pleading and begging to get a shitty job in yet another corporation that's just pretending to be super kawaii cool and awesome but when it comes down to it they'll lay this guy off in a heartbeat, sell the company to some megacorp and screw every employee royally. all startups do this. the guy who owns it buys back all your shares before he lays you off as a favour then keeps the money and sells out faster than Jay Leno in front of a bowl full of Doritos. I bet they do excrement inducing "team building exercizes" at this way super coo startup. No matter what hipster clothes and mac products you put in front of the CEO he's Bill Lumberg from Office Space demanding TPS reports. Finally the worst of this entire article was the buzzword 'growth hacker' which is newspeak for a spammer. Look at the definition article they link, some guy who basically manipulates CL ads to punt his junk, a marketer with coding experience, in other words, a fcking spammer. Protip: all of India and Pakistan are chock full of marketers who can code. This is not a revolutionary concept. I would've shown up and given this guy a USB drive with 3 OSx exploits on it to corrupt client side memory and my "resume", then sold myself to him in person using balls not limp social media or stalking around linkedin and twitter. If they didn't hire me I'd have their source code to sell on blackhat SEO forums anyways so who cares.

johnnymonster 14y ago

It very funny to see Vidyard erasing ALL comments on their post that are negative, constructive or not LOL...