9 ms·

Buy Nothing Day

49 points by krisc 14y ago

untog 14y ago
Funny that this is so high up on Hacker News. The first quote on the page: “Today, humanity faces a stark choice: save the planet and ditch capitalism, or save capitalism and ditch the planet.” There won't be too many startup accelerators or funding rounds when we ditch capitalism, folks. Funny how there was none of this talk on iPhone Launch Day, either...
- fleitz 14y ago
  But there will be untold millions for those lucky enough to win the political patronage lottery.
  - mseebach 14y ago
    No one is claiming that we can't or shouldn't try to fix the problems with the system.
- sp332 14y ago
  It's too bad they tied the word "capitalism" to the specific, "short term gains at all cost" system we have now. I guess it's not too surprising really, since most people only think of Marxism when someone says "communism" etc. But of course it's possible to have a good, responsible and caring society without ditching capitalism.
- krisc 14y ago
  Doesn't pg commenting on this thread validate it's relevance? I posted this because I wanted to see a hacker discussion of this topic.
fleitz 14y ago
“Today, humanity faces a stark choice: save the planet and ditch capitalism, or save capitalism and ditch the planet.” Move to North Korea, everyday is buy nothing day and best of all, none of that horrid capitalism.
- bravoyankee 14y ago
  A culture can stop being capitalistic and consumer-driven without becoming a fear driven dictatorship. Do you equate spending money with freedom and civil liberties? Is that the only way for you and I to be free, is to buy things?
  - rfrey 14y ago
    Economic liberty seems to be a precondition for strong civil liberties, although certainly not sufficient. Also, class mobility seems to be most likely in a society with high economic activity, since there is a lot of demand to be filled and therefore the opportunity to fill it.
    - creatrixcordis 14y ago
      Haha mommy when i grow up i want to be the perfect consumer, just like you!
      - rfrey 14y ago
        I don't understand your criticism.
    - creatrixcordis 14y ago
      The criticism is: economic liberty, mobility blah blah, you need discipline at the individual level to balance that. Good education from parents and the eco-system you take part in, but i guess that is under your "certainly not sufficient" bit, but i believe that discipline takes you farther even in a not so ripe economic situation, i've seen joyful people in poor conditions, i've seen people bettering themselves in no to ripe conditions i think this is the classic problem of people trying to fix their situations from the outside in, instead of from the inside out, ex: better economic situation = better people, but that is clearly faulty logic, i think it should be more like better people = way better economic situation but then again why would a system that depends on its economy so much enforce such an idea: "better people", better people doesn't make enough money as it stands for them, that is why they don't put that in their ads instead of "buy this because of (some bullshit reason here) messaging" because "buy this because of this fucked up reason we created for you" makes more money, period, politicians don't give a fuck about you and me man, they care about numbers, because of their vantage point, the ones that do end up getting wiped out, as we have seen throughout history, just like this new awesome movie lincoln shows "man wants people of all races to be free" get asassinated because of people with no self-discipline and no fucking compassion that were mostly focused on themselves history really explains a lot about us, and so far it looks like we really haven't learnt too much i wonder to think, what would the world be like if people in current power positions would actually be altruistic, sounds like a pipe dream to me
rizzom5000 14y ago
Really, the American brand of capitalism isn't the same as European capitalism or Japanese capitalism. Even within America, there are many different types of capitalist economies. While I share Adbuster's disgust with the hordes of zombie sheep lining up to consume in excessive quantity things that they do not need, I don't think this has anything to do with Capitalism as an economic philosophy.
- illuminate 14y ago
  "I don't think this has anything to do with Capitalism as an economic philosophy" The manner in which Capitalism is implemented and followed is just as important as abstract philosophy. Deeds, not words.
jmduke 14y ago
It's important to read any adbusters content with their context in mind. I think they produce a lot of interesting content, but their agenda (I don't mean that to be denigrating) muddles a lot of their arguments. This article to me makes an important point -- Black Friday has pretty much descended into self-parody -- but couching it as an anti-capitalism argument (instead of an anti-consumerism one) ruins the message for me.
- rohern 14y ago
  This is crap reasoning, sorry jmduke. You might as well say that you need to read the writing of a racist while keeping in mind that he is a racist, so you should not worry too much when he makes racist statements. The criticisms that people are positing here are exactly criticisms of the agenda of Adbusters. The whole thing is about keeping their context in mind and objecting to it.
Millennium 14y ago
You know, I wasn't actually thinking about doing any shopping today. But if Anonymous and Occupy have gotten on the bandwagon, I think I may just have to stop by my local Wal-Mart and take advantage of some of those deals.
- fleitz 14y ago
  Occupy is pretty much a product of adbusters. Companies sell consumer goods to those unable to produce, Adbusters sells consumer ideologies for those unable to think.
- aw3c2 14y ago
  I had an instant anti reaction when I saw the mask and the #occupy
- clobber 14y ago
  > I think I may just have to stop by my local Wal-Mart and take advantage of some of those deals Yeah, that's the spirit. Head on over and contribute to the problem [1][2][3] 1. http://robertreich.org/post/36219730368 http://robertreich.org/post/36219730368 2. http://www.thenation.com/blog/171389/worker-group-alleges-walmart-told-store-level-management-threaten-workers-about-strikes http://www.thenation.com/blog/171389/worker-group-alleges-wa... 3. http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/support-walmart-black-friday-strikers http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/support-...
drivebyacct2 14y ago
So it's either go nuts and trample people or buy nothing and I must be in debt because of credit cards?
pg 14y ago
People who think it's bad to want the world economy to grow probably haven't stopped to think about what economic growth consists of. Economic growth isn't just fat Americans buying bigger SUVs. It's also people in poor countries increasing their standard of living, and advances in medical care.
- balsam 14y ago
  could there be a case however against economic growth being too fast? an example of too fast would be building a chernobyl before the safety infrastructure was up.
  - rohern 14y ago
    I am not sure how shoddy engineering equates with too fast economic growth. That seems like defining your terms so generally that they can refer to almost anything. I also think it is ironic that you chose as an example an infrastructure project not built as the result of capitalism.
  - orijing 14y ago
    I wouldn't consider that growth, though.
    - balsam 14y ago
      Web.py is arguably an example of shoddy engineering in explosive software startups that did not become a medical experiment. "The results show that foremost among the causes of growth in U.S., German and Japanese manufacturing value added is electric power consumption."[1] Now I wouldn't pay too much attention to the word "causes" in there, but... Define your terms too precisely and there would be nothing to think about. [1]"Engineering and Economic Growth" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954349X04000578 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954349X04...
    - balsam 14y ago
      Web.py is arguably an example of shoddy engineering in explosive software startups that did not become a medical experiment. "The results show that foremost among the causes of growth in U.S., German and Japanese manufacturing value added is electric power consumption."[1] Now I wouldn't pay too much attention to the word "causes" in there, but... Define your terms too precisely and there would be nothing to think about. [1]"Engineering and Economic Growth" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954349X04000578 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954349X04...
Strilanc 14y ago
You get to feel good about not buying stuff, and then the next day you still get to buy stuff! Alright, alright, they do have better ideas for a "delay gratification" message. Credit card cut-up (pre-commitment) and zombie walks (exposure) sound like good ideas. Don't make a day about not doing something negative, make it about doing something positive. Don't turn off your power for a day, spend a day installing better insulation so you need less power.
alainbryden 14y ago
I buy nothing about 95% of the days in a year. I don't get why this is supposed to make such a difference?
- subleq 14y ago
  This leaves 18 days per year to buy things, each 20 days from the last. Do you grow your own food, or do you eat only nonperishables?
  - alainbryden 14y ago
    I shop for groceries about once per month, to buy food in bulk then freeze bread, meat and veggies. I grow some veggies in the backyard during the summer. I'm not the healthiest eater, mostly I just hate shopping. This gives me 6 misc days to buy gifts for birthdays and things. I guess this doesn't count jumping on the odd humble indie bundle.
- illuminate 14y ago
  That 5% of purchases makes up the majority of these retailers profits is why.
  - alainbryden 14y ago
    That is irrelevant to the point at hand - asking everyone to not buy things on one day, even if successful, merely postpones the retailers' revenues by a day or so. A more poignant campaign would revolve around convincing people not to buy certain unnecessary things at all, ever.
    - illuminate 14y ago
      "A more poignant campaign would revolve around convincing people not to buy certain unnecessary things at all, ever." Which is not at odds with Buy Nothing Day and the associated movement. They're not just suggesting you delay purchases, but to buy from independent/local crafters or make your own gifts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_Nothing_Day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_Nothing_Day I haven't followed the philosophy to a T, but I've avoided the malls and chain stores fully, giving more personal gifts from Etsy sellers, local craft-meetups, handwritten cards, and baked gifts than ever this year. Supporting local/small businesses is always a good idea!
jeremyarussell 14y ago
Is it just me that's sick and tired of all these extreme all or nothing causes? It's either no patents or leave it the same, it's either capitalism is all bad or all good, it's either we are saving the planet or burning it as we go. You know we can just change certain laws in the patent system to get it fixed right? You understand that the idea of someone being able to sale their hard work for a living isn't evil right? Or that maybe just making a true concerted effort of a smaller carbon footprint is enough? We don't need to ban all gas lines, or coal and replace it all with solar wind farms. Consider this, we are fighting other people's ideals with equally extreme ideals and then wonder why the world doesn't see our brilliance. They think all of torrenting technology is evil because it allows for easier "unauthorized" access of someone else's creative content. It's a tool people. Capitalism isn't bad, overly greedy people are bad, and they just happen to love capitalism. It's called moderation.
- illuminate 14y ago
  "It's called moderation." If moderation was the natural state of things, we wouldn't have to argue for it.
  - jeremyarussell 14y ago
    Which is why I argue for it. Humans do have the ability to override their natural way of thinking, until that day is no longer true I guess I'll keep arguing for the case of moderation.
- bhickey 14y ago
  I was pleased to see a recent PETA campaign advocating for the use of controlled atmosphere killing of poultry. Rather than their typical sensationalist approach (ex. http://www.peta.org/features/would-you-eat-a-chickens-period.aspx http://www.peta.org/features/would-you-eat-a-chickens-period...) that appeal only to the faithful. They made economic arguments: Typical slaughterhouse practices are stressful for workers and lead to damaged product. Improving worker conditions decreases employee turn over and boosts yield. It's probably wishful thinking to take this as a signal they're transitioning to become a serious advocacy organization.
mseebach 14y ago
The thinly veiled celebration of violence is disgusting. The image from this poster: http://www.adbusters.org/content/carnivalesque-rebellion-live http://www.adbusters.org/content/carnivalesque-rebellion-liv... seems to be a Reuters photo with this caption: "AVIANO, Italy (Reuters) - A protestor throws a rock at riot police outside the Aviano Air base in northern Italy Sunday. More than 300 protestors took part in the demonstration against NATO's air strikes on Yugoslavia. Photo by Stefano Rellandini" (found at http://home.hiwaay.net/~craigg/g4c/NATO-help.htm http://home.hiwaay.net/~craigg/g4c/NATO-help.htm)

49 points by krisc 14y ago

untog 14y ago

Funny that this is so high up on Hacker News. The first quote on the page: “Today, humanity faces a stark choice: save the planet and ditch capitalism, or save capitalism and ditch the planet.” There won't be too many startup accelerators or funding rounds when we ditch capitalism, folks. Funny how there was none of this talk on iPhone Launch Day, either...

fleitz 14y ago
But there will be untold millions for those lucky enough to win the political patronage lottery.
- mseebach 14y ago
  No one is claiming that we can't or shouldn't try to fix the problems with the system.
sp332 14y ago
It's too bad they tied the word "capitalism" to the specific, "short term gains at all cost" system we have now. I guess it's not too surprising really, since most people only think of Marxism when someone says "communism" etc. But of course it's possible to have a good, responsible and caring society without ditching capitalism.
krisc 14y ago
Doesn't pg commenting on this thread validate it's relevance? I posted this because I wanted to see a hacker discussion of this topic.

fleitz 14y ago

“Today, humanity faces a stark choice: save the planet and ditch capitalism, or save capitalism and ditch the planet.” Move to North Korea, everyday is buy nothing day and best of all, none of that horrid capitalism.

bravoyankee 14y ago
A culture can stop being capitalistic and consumer-driven without becoming a fear driven dictatorship. Do you equate spending money with freedom and civil liberties? Is that the only way for you and I to be free, is to buy things?
- rfrey 14y ago
  Economic liberty seems to be a precondition for strong civil liberties, although certainly not sufficient. Also, class mobility seems to be most likely in a society with high economic activity, since there is a lot of demand to be filled and therefore the opportunity to fill it.
  - creatrixcordis 14y ago
    Haha mommy when i grow up i want to be the perfect consumer, just like you!
    - rfrey 14y ago
      I don't understand your criticism.
  - creatrixcordis 14y ago
    The criticism is: economic liberty, mobility blah blah, you need discipline at the individual level to balance that. Good education from parents and the eco-system you take part in, but i guess that is under your "certainly not sufficient" bit, but i believe that discipline takes you farther even in a not so ripe economic situation, i've seen joyful people in poor conditions, i've seen people bettering themselves in no to ripe conditions i think this is the classic problem of people trying to fix their situations from the outside in, instead of from the inside out, ex: better economic situation = better people, but that is clearly faulty logic, i think it should be more like better people = way better economic situation but then again why would a system that depends on its economy so much enforce such an idea: "better people", better people doesn't make enough money as it stands for them, that is why they don't put that in their ads instead of "buy this because of (some bullshit reason here) messaging" because "buy this because of this fucked up reason we created for you" makes more money, period, politicians don't give a fuck about you and me man, they care about numbers, because of their vantage point, the ones that do end up getting wiped out, as we have seen throughout history, just like this new awesome movie lincoln shows "man wants people of all races to be free" get asassinated because of people with no self-discipline and no fucking compassion that were mostly focused on themselves history really explains a lot about us, and so far it looks like we really haven't learnt too much i wonder to think, what would the world be like if people in current power positions would actually be altruistic, sounds like a pipe dream to me

rizzom5000 14y ago

Really, the American brand of capitalism isn't the same as European capitalism or Japanese capitalism. Even within America, there are many different types of capitalist economies. While I share Adbuster's disgust with the hordes of zombie sheep lining up to consume in excessive quantity things that they do not need, I don't think this has anything to do with Capitalism as an economic philosophy.

illuminate 14y ago
"I don't think this has anything to do with Capitalism as an economic philosophy" The manner in which Capitalism is implemented and followed is just as important as abstract philosophy. Deeds, not words.

jmduke 14y ago

It's important to read any adbusters content with their context in mind. I think they produce a lot of interesting content, but their agenda (I don't mean that to be denigrating) muddles a lot of their arguments. This article to me makes an important point -- Black Friday has pretty much descended into self-parody -- but couching it as an anti-capitalism argument (instead of an anti-consumerism one) ruins the message for me.

rohern 14y ago
This is crap reasoning, sorry jmduke. You might as well say that you need to read the writing of a racist while keeping in mind that he is a racist, so you should not worry too much when he makes racist statements. The criticisms that people are positing here are exactly criticisms of the agenda of Adbusters. The whole thing is about keeping their context in mind and objecting to it.

Millennium 14y ago

You know, I wasn't actually thinking about doing any shopping today. But if Anonymous and Occupy have gotten on the bandwagon, I think I may just have to stop by my local Wal-Mart and take advantage of some of those deals.

fleitz 14y ago
Occupy is pretty much a product of adbusters. Companies sell consumer goods to those unable to produce, Adbusters sells consumer ideologies for those unable to think.
aw3c2 14y ago
I had an instant anti reaction when I saw the mask and the #occupy
clobber 14y ago
> I think I may just have to stop by my local Wal-Mart and take advantage of some of those deals Yeah, that's the spirit. Head on over and contribute to the problem [1][2][3] 1. http://robertreich.org/post/36219730368 http://robertreich.org/post/36219730368 2. http://www.thenation.com/blog/171389/worker-group-alleges-walmart-told-store-level-management-threaten-workers-about-strikes http://www.thenation.com/blog/171389/worker-group-alleges-wa... 3. http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/support-walmart-black-friday-strikers http://occupyamerica.crooksandliars.com/diane-sweet/support-...

drivebyacct2 14y ago

So it's either go nuts and trample people or buy nothing and I must be in debt because of credit cards?

pg 14y ago

People who think it's bad to want the world economy to grow probably haven't stopped to think about what economic growth consists of. Economic growth isn't just fat Americans buying bigger SUVs. It's also people in poor countries increasing their standard of living, and advances in medical care.

balsam 14y ago
could there be a case however against economic growth being too fast? an example of too fast would be building a chernobyl before the safety infrastructure was up.
- rohern 14y ago
  I am not sure how shoddy engineering equates with too fast economic growth. That seems like defining your terms so generally that they can refer to almost anything. I also think it is ironic that you chose as an example an infrastructure project not built as the result of capitalism.
- orijing 14y ago
  I wouldn't consider that growth, though.
  - balsam 14y ago
    Web.py is arguably an example of shoddy engineering in explosive software startups that did not become a medical experiment. "The results show that foremost among the causes of growth in U.S., German and Japanese manufacturing value added is electric power consumption."[1] Now I wouldn't pay too much attention to the word "causes" in there, but... Define your terms too precisely and there would be nothing to think about. [1]"Engineering and Economic Growth" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954349X04000578 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954349X04...
  - balsam 14y ago
    Web.py is arguably an example of shoddy engineering in explosive software startups that did not become a medical experiment. "The results show that foremost among the causes of growth in U.S., German and Japanese manufacturing value added is electric power consumption."[1] Now I wouldn't pay too much attention to the word "causes" in there, but... Define your terms too precisely and there would be nothing to think about. [1]"Engineering and Economic Growth" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954349X04000578 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954349X04...

Strilanc 14y ago

You get to feel good about not buying stuff, and then the next day you still get to buy stuff! Alright, alright, they do have better ideas for a "delay gratification" message. Credit card cut-up (pre-commitment) and zombie walks (exposure) sound like good ideas. Don't make a day about not doing something negative, make it about doing something positive. Don't turn off your power for a day, spend a day installing better insulation so you need less power.

alainbryden 14y ago

I buy nothing about 95% of the days in a year. I don't get why this is supposed to make such a difference?

subleq 14y ago
This leaves 18 days per year to buy things, each 20 days from the last. Do you grow your own food, or do you eat only nonperishables?
- alainbryden 14y ago
  I shop for groceries about once per month, to buy food in bulk then freeze bread, meat and veggies. I grow some veggies in the backyard during the summer. I'm not the healthiest eater, mostly I just hate shopping. This gives me 6 misc days to buy gifts for birthdays and things. I guess this doesn't count jumping on the odd humble indie bundle.
illuminate 14y ago
That 5% of purchases makes up the majority of these retailers profits is why.
- alainbryden 14y ago
  That is irrelevant to the point at hand - asking everyone to not buy things on one day, even if successful, merely postpones the retailers' revenues by a day or so. A more poignant campaign would revolve around convincing people not to buy certain unnecessary things at all, ever.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    "A more poignant campaign would revolve around convincing people not to buy certain unnecessary things at all, ever." Which is not at odds with Buy Nothing Day and the associated movement. They're not just suggesting you delay purchases, but to buy from independent/local crafters or make your own gifts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_Nothing_Day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_Nothing_Day I haven't followed the philosophy to a T, but I've avoided the malls and chain stores fully, giving more personal gifts from Etsy sellers, local craft-meetups, handwritten cards, and baked gifts than ever this year. Supporting local/small businesses is always a good idea!

jeremyarussell 14y ago

Is it just me that's sick and tired of all these extreme all or nothing causes? It's either no patents or leave it the same, it's either capitalism is all bad or all good, it's either we are saving the planet or burning it as we go. You know we can just change certain laws in the patent system to get it fixed right? You understand that the idea of someone being able to sale their hard work for a living isn't evil right? Or that maybe just making a true concerted effort of a smaller carbon footprint is enough? We don't need to ban all gas lines, or coal and replace it all with solar wind farms. Consider this, we are fighting other people's ideals with equally extreme ideals and then wonder why the world doesn't see our brilliance. They think all of torrenting technology is evil because it allows for easier "unauthorized" access of someone else's creative content. It's a tool people. Capitalism isn't bad, overly greedy people are bad, and they just happen to love capitalism. It's called moderation.

illuminate 14y ago
"It's called moderation." If moderation was the natural state of things, we wouldn't have to argue for it.
- jeremyarussell 14y ago
  Which is why I argue for it. Humans do have the ability to override their natural way of thinking, until that day is no longer true I guess I'll keep arguing for the case of moderation.
bhickey 14y ago
I was pleased to see a recent PETA campaign advocating for the use of controlled atmosphere killing of poultry. Rather than their typical sensationalist approach (ex. http://www.peta.org/features/would-you-eat-a-chickens-period.aspx http://www.peta.org/features/would-you-eat-a-chickens-period...) that appeal only to the faithful. They made economic arguments: Typical slaughterhouse practices are stressful for workers and lead to damaged product. Improving worker conditions decreases employee turn over and boosts yield. It's probably wishful thinking to take this as a signal they're transitioning to become a serious advocacy organization.

mseebach 14y ago

The thinly veiled celebration of violence is disgusting. The image from this poster: http://www.adbusters.org/content/carnivalesque-rebellion-live http://www.adbusters.org/content/carnivalesque-rebellion-liv... seems to be a Reuters photo with this caption: "AVIANO, Italy (Reuters) - A protestor throws a rock at riot police outside the Aviano Air base in northern Italy Sunday. More than 300 protestors took part in the demonstration against NATO's air strikes on Yugoslavia. Photo by Stefano Rellandini" (found at http://home.hiwaay.net/~craigg/g4c/NATO-help.htm http://home.hiwaay.net/~craigg/g4c/NATO-help.htm)