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Scouting's Real Crisis Is Not Marketing. It Is Decades of Neglect.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- decimalenough 4mo agoThe article gives short shrift to the real real crisis: you need to read 12 paragraphs down to find a casual mention of the "sexual-abuse bankruptcy", which also explains the precipitous 2020 collapse in membership in the chart that is prominently shown up top. Turns out parents aren't too keen on sending their kids into camps that have reported 92,000 cases of sexual abuse (and how many cases were not?).
- duskwuff 4mo agoAre you sure that's the only cause? I can think of some other events in 2020 that might have led to a lot of youth dropping out of in-person programs.
- 6stringmerc 4mo agoActually the 2020 drop in membership is more closely tied to the disproportionate “voices” of the LDS membership who did everything possible to change the culture of the organization to suit their ends. Yes the abuse issue is real, but don’t discount the Mormon influence. As a group, they have serious psychiatric issues (the most medicated state in the US by a huge margin) and frequently use dishonesty whenever it suits them (see: Mitt Romney and the caffeine prohibition change).
- vintermann 4mo agoI'm out of the loop on this, what changes did the LDS want?
- quantummagic 4mo agoThe LDS wanted it to continue to be more of a faith-based organization, and also objected to combining boys and girls together into the same program. Ultimately they left the organization at the end of 2019, taking about 20% of the membership with them.
- nephihaha 4mo agoA lot of Scout groups are church based and not only with the LDS. I have heard that the LDS church got wind of abuse claims within scouting before they hit the mainstream. They have their own abuse scandals just now so probably didn't want to fight that war on two fronts. Either that or cost cutting, which is a major feature of modern Mormonism, except where temple construction is concerned. Scouting hasn't taken off in Mormon churches much outside the USA by the way. Not really in the UK.
- JuniperMesos 4mo agoYou don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only.
- muwtyhg 4mo ago> You don't have to be Mormon or even religious to think that there's value in having a youth program that is specifically male-only, such that you'd be highly motivated to abandon a youth program if it stopped being male-only. Are you going to expand on this at all? What is the value in Scouts being male-only?
- Henchman21 4mo agoBoys need to learn how to be men. Just like girls need to learn how to be women. LOADS and LOADS of material available to young girls to accomplish this goal. Lots of funding for them too, to become women. Boys? Boys are _disposable_ and get _no investment_. I'll admit this is my personal perspective. I would be happy to be wrong about this but I just don't see it where I am in the Midwest. So I think the value comes from having a male-only space where boys can learn to be men. This is especially true of young men in the throes of puberty where young women are such a huge distraction they cannot even _think straight_. I know this because I got to experience this _first hand_ and it took me many many MANY more years than it would have to integrate my feelings for women into my being or psyche or whatever the word is. For the record I am neither Mormon, nor religious. In fact I wildly far to the left by most assessments. Admittedly I don't fit neatly into other people's labels. What is the value in all programs being mixed gender?
- nephihaha 4mo agoThat is a very sectarian comment. Whatever you might think of Mormonism the religion, never confuse it with the membership who come in all shapes and sizes. (A large proportion of people in Utah aren't even LDS, at least 40% or more in some areas, and depression is a major issue throughout the other Rocky Mountain areas.) There is some good evidence by the way that the LDS leadership got wind of the abuse compensation claims before they became prominent, which is why they disaffiliated. It may also be cost cutting, because the Mormon church is providing less and less money for activities of all sorts.
- stavros 4mo agoCan't this argument be applied to every group that has more than one member?
- AuthorizedCust 4mo agoThe 2020 drop was 1/3 LDS pullout, 1/3 pandemic. The spring membership numbers reveal this. Mid-spring is when the lapsed members from the prior year finally get dropped. Spring 2020 was before the pandemic had any real effect on membership (main recruiting is in the fall), so that is when LDS's withdrawal became apparent. Then spring 2021 is when we see drops and poor recruiting during the pandemic. Since then, membership has been largely flat, possibly declining modestly (hard to read precisely).
- naijaboiler 4mo agoi disagree with you. The author is pointing at deeper cultural issue of lack of candor that unaddressed allows things like sexual abuse to flourish. It is an organization that is not willing to tackle serious or face hard things head on. Yeah and their product sucks, so improved marketing won't save it.
- intrasight 4mo ago> Its historic advantages—brand recognition, inexpensive outdoor access, and the prestige of Eagle Scout—once masked program defects. I don't think the product sucked at all I think the packaging of that product was terrible. My father took me to a scout meeting when I was 13. Afterwards, he asked if I was interested. I said no - they really come across as Nazi Youth combined with religious fanaticism, and neither appeals to me. I was sad because the product is truly awesome.
- throwup238 4mo agoSame experience except it reminded my dad too much of his time in the Soviet Young Pioneers.
- raddan 4mo agoI was a Scout in four different places growing up. My family moved a lot. My experience (in the 1980s) is that program depended a lot on the priorities of local organizers. Anecdotally, I observed that in communities where Scouting was seen as important—measured by the percentage of children who participated-it was a positive experience. My time as a Boy Scout in Maine was life changing. It was not just about activities and skills (although there were many), it’s clear that the leaders of that Troop saw Scouting as a kind of secular education in ethics and community. They made the various Scouting accomplishments (ranks, merit badges) feel like milestones along a path of self improvement. It felt important. When my family left Maine, the local Troop was weird (the Hitler Youth comment by the earlier poster tracks) and activities consisted of playing checkers in a church basement. In particular, peer bullying of younger/new kids was routine. I lost interest at that point and stopped going. It’s been difficult to follow news of Scouting’s decline for me, because I have seen how positive it CAN be. But perhaps local Troops like this are rare.
- KnuthIsGod 4mo agoThe elephant in the room is the pedophile in the Scoutmaster. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/boy-scouts-america-have-pedophile-epidemic-are-hiding-hundreds-its-n1039661 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/boy-scouts-america-have... Why would any responsible parent put their child in such danger.
- nephihaha 4mo agoYes, it is unfortunately. It is a great shame, because I believe scouting can be a positive experience when there are proper safeguards. They have paid out a lot of compensation recently. In the USA, the Mormon church disaffiliated their programme from them a few years ago and that was a big blow to them too since a lot of LDS kids were members.
- bluGill 4mo agoThe danger is the same as anywhere. It just got in the news and now you think it is worse.
- slumberlust 4mo agoDo you feel that it's also irresponsible for parents to take their kids to a Catholic church?
- nephihaha 4mo agoThe highest rates of abuse are in government run institutions worldwide, but I rarely hear that mentioned.
- aaron695 4mo ago[dead]
- bawolff 4mo ago> The cost falls on both ends of Scouts BSA. That program is optimal for middle schoolers, but middle schoolers are not trusted to own it. They are managed by older youth instead. High schoolers fare no better. Instead of receiving programming built around autonomy, peer challenge, advanced outdoor adventure, and responsibility suited to their age, the vast majority are trapped in a middle-school program where their main role is supervising the younger Scouts. BSA romanticizes this as mentoring. Teenagers see it as babysitting. They know the difference, and they leave. A kind of interesting statement. I dont know if i agree. I think it is a positive thing to have children from different age groups learn from each other. Obviously it shouldn't devolve into just babysitting, but the idea of mixed ages learning together doesn't seem inherently bad.
- meetingthrower 4mo agoFormer Eagle Scout here -- I agree a bit with this analysis. The absolute best parts of it for me were the high adventure camps, backpacking, etc. The absolute worst where the Monday meetings. Depending on the vibe of the troop your activities bias one way or the other.
- valleyjo 4mo agoOnce you earn it you are an Eagle Scout for life. So you are an Eagle Scout not a “former” Eagle Scout. At least that’s what I was thought!
- meetingthrower 4mo agoHahah yes. Eagle Scout here! Be prepared!
- bluGill 4mo agoI'm currently scoutmaster and that is my thought. Camping is fun, but we do that once a month - what should we do the other times that is fun
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- ndr42 4mo agoBSA rebranded itself “Scouting America.” The new name initializes to “SA,” common shorthand for sexual assault. Well, as a german and history conscious person I think the acronym could also be taken in a completely different way.
- RobotToaster 4mo agoObviously they should have called it Scouting States.
- AuthorizedCust 4mo agoMore important context are current BSA youth and incoming generations of BSA Scout parents. To them, SA = sexual assault.
- cbdevidal 4mo agoLooks like membership peaked in 1971. Add that chart to the list: https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
- bsenftner 4mo agoI remember, my older brother wanted to be an Eagle Scout, and I was of the age to initially join. Some respected counter culture person, I don't think I was him, but someone like George Carlin, started talking about the boy scouts being where men scouted boys. That was it, the boy scouts were instantly "uncool".
- RobotToaster 4mo agoI assume that site is implying it's Nixon's fault? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock
- cbdevidal 4mo agoHe certainly contributed, but I personally would not agree that it was all his fault.
- bluGill 4mo agoAs scoutmaster the article feels wrong. There are things that I'm sure are wrong but I don't know what they are. the article doesn't seem right either though.
- slv77 4mo agoAs a scoutmaster you have probably noticed the problems go much deeper: 1) The BSA national organization sized itself in the 1970s based on the idea that membership would continue to increase forever. The national organization is grossly oversized relative to the needs of the troops. The result is that the national organizations needs are at odds with the troops needs. The national organization is primarily focused on funding itself, including its debt, which creates a net burden for troops. 2) This net burden manifests itself in multiple ways at the troop level including using troops for fund raising efforts for the national organization where little if any of the funds make it back to the troop, increasingly irrelevant mandatory merit badge requirements to appease national donors who want to make their mark (reducing scout choices) and increasingly expensive costs for camps and equipment. 3) Lack of a solid development program for Scoutmasters. Few men in corporate America truly know how to manage or lead anymore. This rot started in the 1970s when computer programs replaced middle management and operations was largely outsourced. Outdoor skills have eroded as the population became more urbanized. Scoutmasters can’t teach what they don’t know and the national organization hasn’t filled that gap. For example compare BSA with NOLS for quality of their skills training. 4) Without a strong selection and development program for scoutmasters there is no prestige. Corporate America’s doesn’t see it as a place to develop leadership from but a distraction. That means that the people the scouting organization can draw from are the very, very good and the very, very bad. 5) Sexual abuse is a significant problem for any youth development organization and that fact was ignored by the BSA for way too long. The majority of perpetrators are men. As an organization with a declining pool of volunteers to draw adult leadership from the ratio of abusers who volunteer is going to be uncomfortably high. Courts and the court of public opinion have shown that there is no limit to the liability for this type of behavior. This is a strong signal that American’s simply do not want youth programs where this kind of thing can happen. 6) Being an adult leader of a youth organization comes with breathtakingly high amount of personal liability. Simply moving a car full of youth from one place to another risks financial devastation. The BSA does little to nothing to mitigate that risk and the only other way to mitigate that is through 1:1 youth to parent involvement where children are under direct, parental supervision at all times. This is antithetical to a youth lead program like the BSA.
- bshepard 4mo agoThe AI writing patterns here are obnoxious on both a sentence by sentence level and at the level of overall meaning and content. Because a machine wrote this, lacks human intelligence, so is not worth reading.
- kappuchino 4mo agoI read the text myself and checked it with pangram, it's 95% plus human written (people hate hundred percent so the discount). So I'm asking myself if it is ragebait or Idiocracy. I know that's harsh to say, but throwing in written by AI is harsh as well. (Analysis: Pangram believes that this document is fully human-written https://www.pangram.com/history/c59610e0-aba7-469c-b762-21f79846c2b4?ucc=6d3B1ad5MuQ https://www.pangram.com/history/c59610e0-aba7-469c-b762-21f7...)
- AuthorizedCust 4mo agoI wrote that piece, and I am human. BTW, AI checkers are garbage. Even though your stat is heavily in my favor, I urge you not to use that stuff. It is not rage bait. It's good-faith commentary on how a movement has become lost.
- kappuchino 4mo agoThanks for the reply. Um. In this particular text, I tend do disagree.
- AuthorizedCust 4mo agoI wrote this. I am a human.
- adamtaylor_13 4mo agoThe point about leadership stands. One thing about leadership that, you must be someone worth following. I went to a scouting event about a year ago and honestly none of the leadership was inspiring in any way. Timid communication, lack of eye contact, pudgy physique, unkempt appearance. Look I'm not trying to bash anyone, but am I supposed to tell my kid to look up to these folks? There's no way.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- plasticeagle 4mo agoAI;DR
- AuthorizedCust 4mo agoI am a human, and I wrote that.